From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Icon designer wanted (Aquamacs Emacs) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 01:17:10 +0100 Organization: Organization?!? Message-ID: <854q4ip5vd.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <54321A2A-3F36-4416-B473-49AC11FF057F@gmail.com> <853bk5gwa8.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <792D87C1-B9A9-495E-9335-7139845D1CB0@gmail.com> <85fyo4zvei.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87sls47lvd.fsf@vh213602.truman.edu> <85wthftsme.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1136506959 11441 80.91.229.2 (6 Jan 2006 00:22:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:22:39 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 06 01:22:39 2006 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EufN9-0000jx-H1 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2006 01:22:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EufOs-0006Rs-Ez for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:24:10 -0500 Original-Path: shelby.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.arcor.de!news.arcor.de!not-for-mail Original-Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help X-Face: 2FEFf>]>q>2iw=B6, xrUubRI>pR&Ml9=ao@P@i)L:\urd*t9M~y1^:+Y]'C0~{mAl`oQuAl \!3KEIp?*w`|bL5qr,H)LFO6Q=qx~iH4DN; i"; /yuIsqbLLCh/!U#X[S~(5eZ41to5f%E@'ELIi$t^ Vc\LWP@J5p^rst0+('>Er0=^1{]M9!p?&:\z]|;&=NP3AhB!B_bi^]Pfkw User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:pdenotkv6Pd72i4YvdOYFUoeYkg= Original-Lines: 74 Original-NNTP-Posting-Date: 06 Jan 2006 01:17:07 MET Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 8aa1969a.newsread2.arcor-online.net Original-X-Trace: DXC=n9; 82g32OldXiD6\]5e5enQ5U85hF6f; djW\KbG]kaMh1BZS; MmC65fUj4bIjUI9\`Q1Yo0:e7@Pkc[Wn>\JAZH`Ec?`[F:Wf@lV=`V; iL]U2a Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet-abuse@arcor.de Original-Xref: shelby.stanford.edu gnu.emacs.help:136855 Original-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:32474 Archived-At: Tim McNamara writes: > "Luis O. Silva" writes: > >> On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 00:59:49 -0600, Tim McNamara writes: >> >> TM> I've yet to find a GNU/Linux or BSD system that >> TM> is as good to use as OS X. >> >> It's not a matter of how well something works. The only way to >> go is that of freedom. > > How well software works is a central issue in getting people to use > it. It is a secondary consideration for free software. The primary motivator is freedom. If it weren't, free software would not exist, since the beginnings of free software were almost necessarily technically inferior to proprietary offerings. Free software owes its existence to its freedoms, not its usefulness. If you sacrifice the freedom for the sake of usefulness, you'll lose both in the end. > If the Free Software movement is content to have a limited market > and minimal adoption, well that can't be helped. Restricting generally useful features to MacOSX only is limiting market and adoption. You are actually making my case without realizing it, because you don't look beyond your favorite platform, the proprietary MacOSX. But the free software movement never was about promoting and improving MacOSX. It is about promoting and improving free software. > My computer is a tool. I need it to just work, I need it to be > reliable, and I need it to be easily useable. In short, I don't > have time to edit .conf files. Completely irrelevant. > I do see those things. I just disagree with David K's hostility and > castigation of others. You disagree with hearing things you consider inconvenient for your private goals. Tough. It is a perfectly valid viewpoint for you to be interested only in MacOSX and ignoring any other aspects of free software. But that viewpoint does not help promote free software at all. You have, of course, no obligation to promote the cause that has made the software possible that you are using. But there is little point in pretending something different. > What the free software movement doesn't seem to grasp is that one of > the things that counts is useability- both in terms of the > relationship between software and user, but also the relationships > between contributors and maintainers. If you alienate people, they > just go away and stop using/contributing to your software. But we are talking about a case where somebody has chosen a way that makes it impossible to contribute back to the software. Whether he is alienated and goes away and stops using the software does not actually make a difference upstream: in either case, no improvement to the software benefitting its users in general is achieved. In contrast to you, however, I am not of the opinion that David is incapable of listening to and understanding a different, though inconvenient, opinion. > The implied "oh well, good riddance" is an attitude that is the kiss > of death. If my attitude were "oh well, good riddance", I'd hardly be wasting my time with explaining the problem, would I? -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum