From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shift selection using interactive spec Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:03:05 +0100 Message-ID: <853aqarp06.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <87k5k69p92.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87hcf6ratt.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <878x0if9ul.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87od9e9gnx.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87skyo5bvk.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87skynrin5.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87iqzju0lq.fsf@kfs-lx.rd.rdm> <851w5xx5ya.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87ve3993dt.fsf@jurta.org> <47EA37C7.7080502@gmail.com> <47EADCC4.2000207@gmail.com> <87iqz7wx7n.fsf@jurta.org> <851w5vti9y.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87tziqqtd0.fsf@jurta.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206774240 17087 80.91.229.12 (29 Mar 2008 07:04:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:04:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lennart.borgman@gmail.com, jared@hpalace.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Mar 29 08:04:31 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JfV6w-00012y-Kg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:04:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JfV6L-0006gH-AN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JfV6H-0006eu-C0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:37 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JfV6A-0006ap-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:36 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JfV6A-0006am-FE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JfV61-00035G-7K; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-11.arcor-online.net ([151.189.21.51]) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JfV5t-0003rO-6I; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:03:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-in-15-z2.arcor-online.net (mail-in-15-z2.arcor-online.net [151.189.8.32]) by mail-in-11.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94F862110E5; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:03:10 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (mail-in-12.arcor-online.net [151.189.21.52]) by mail-in-15-z2.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3BE72414E; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:03:10 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from lola.goethe.zz (dslb-084-061-014-217.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.14.217]) by mail-in-12.arcor-online.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB48C4621; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:03:10 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: by lola.goethe.zz (Postfix, from userid 1002) id DE9981C4CE00; Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:03:05 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87tziqqtd0.fsf@jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:47:19 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.0.60 (gnu/linux) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.92.1/6457/Sat Mar 29 00:56:30 2008 on mail-in-12.arcor-online.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-detected-kernel: by mx20.gnu.org: Linux 2.4-2.6 X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93760 Archived-At: Juri Linkov writes: >>> And the easiest way to do this is to change properties. >> >> I am not concerned about the easiest, but an appropriate way. > > Emacs should be easy to use and customize, not appropriate for some > abstract goal. Giving a function a well-defined default behavior is not customization. It is function definition. >>> Since there were complaints that property lists are "hidden" from >>> users, I propose the following patch to display them in the output >>> of `describe-function' and `describe-variable'. >> >> Properties are not part of either variable or function. They are >> part of the symbol. > > So what? There are already about 200 distinct properties in Emacs > attached indirectly to functions and variables via symbols, and they > modify the default behavior, so the documentation should reveal them > to users. But there is no _meaning_ conveyed by some property. It is undocumented. >> Lisp is Lisp, and Scheme is Scheme. > > And Emacs is Emacs (_extensible_, _customizable_, _self-documenting_ > real-time display editor). So what about "self-documenting" applies to arbitrary properties? We don't document functions by disassembling them, but by documentation strings. The presence of a property is not self-explanatory, and it is not apparent whether it may affect the variable, the function, or something else. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum