Re: some progress

Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
   >> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 15:27:49 +0200
   >> 
   >> 
   >> Well the http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/DisplayEngineForBiDi

   >> I am missing interactive function turning bidi on and off.

   > There isn't any.  Why would you need one?

   >> BTW where and how can I use bigger fonts for hebrew? (I am using  Laptop
   >> with a 12 inch screen and the one emacs uses per default are small)

   > Does it help to type "C-x C-+"?
Only  a little bit, the ascii chars are getting really bigger the hebrew
ones only a slightly bit. Do I need additional fonts (I am on (K)ubuntu 10.04)???

   >> (setq-default bidi-display-reordering t)

   > That is already so by default.

   >> (defun my-turn-bidi-on ()
   >> "Just start with  to R2L."
   >> (interactive)
   >> (setq  bidi-paragraph-direction 'right-to-left)
   >> (message "R2L on!"))

   > No need, Emacs determines the correct base direction of each paragraph
   > automatically, using the method described in the UAX#9.

Ok you are right. There are even nikkud!
However the input methods which are offered do no include hebrew
phonetic, by which I mean 


 "aleph" is on "a" etc.

That is why I use the input via KDE and that is why I need to turn on
R2L manually.



So maybe the best solution would be to provide also hebrew-phonetical[1]
Because I am a little worried how KDE keyboard and nested text may work
together.

I can give it a try to have also a hebrew-phonetical. Which are the
files to be modified?



   > And paragraph direction has very little to do with display of
   > bidirectional text per se.  The latter works no matter what is the
   > paragraph's base direction.  If it didn't, you'd be unable to have R2L
   > text in a middle of an otherwise L2R paragraph.

   >> (defun my-turn-bidi-off ()
   >> "Just start with  to L2R."
   >> (interactive)
   >> (setq  bidi-paragraph-direction 'left-to-right)
   >> (message "R2L off!"))

   > Likewise, not needed.

Footnotes:
[1]  (BTW what is hebrew-lyx suppose to be? KDE also offers it and I cannot
see any difference to standard hebrew, ok I don't have a hebrew keyboard
here, so maybe . /  etc are different.



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Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 16:03:35 +0200
> 
>    > Does it help to type "C-x C-+"?
> Only  a little bit, the ascii chars are getting really bigger the hebrew
> ones only a slightly bit. Do I need additional fonts (I am on (K)ubuntu 10.04)???

You need more/better fonts.

> However the input methods which are offered do no include hebrew
> phonetic, by which I mean 
> 
> 
>  "aleph" is on "a" etc.

Try hebrew-biblical-sil, it comes close.

And "C-h C-\" will display a keyboard schematics that will tell you
which key inserts which character.

> That is why I use the input via KDE and that is why I need to turn on
> R2L manually.

??? I don't understand: as long as Emacs gets the correct characters,
no matter how they were created, everything else, including paragraph
direction, should "just work".

> So maybe the best solution would be to provide also hebrew-phonetical[1]
> Because I am a little worried how KDE keyboard and nested text may work
> together.
> 
> I can give it a try to have also a hebrew-phonetical. Which are the
> files to be modified?

leim/quail/hebrew.el.

> [1]  (BTW what is hebrew-lyx suppose to be? KDE also offers it and I cannot
> see any difference to standard hebrew, ok I don't have a hebrew keyboard
> here, so maybe . /  etc are different.

I expect hebrew-lyx in Emacs to be the same as what KDE offers.  But I
never checked.

Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:



   > You need more/better fonts.

Any recommentations?
   >> However the input methods which are offered do no include hebrew
   >> phonetic, by which I mean 
   >> 
   >> 
   >> "aleph" is on "a" etc.

   > Try hebrew-biblical-sil, it comes close.

Right, but still not the same

   > And "C-h C-\" will display a keyboard schematics that will tell you
   > which key inserts which character.

   >> That is why I use the input via KDE and that is why I need to turn on
   >> R2L manually.

   > ??? I don't understand: as long as Emacs gets the correct characters,
   > no matter how they were created, everything else, including paragraph
   > direction, should "just work".


Ok, the issue is with say C-c that will give C-hebrew-char with the KDE
hebrew keyboard.

However there is another issue I just found out.

If I start to write hebrew the way you described it via the input
method, then the cursor is at the left part of the buffer and does not
move while the hebrew letters are written. 




However when I use the functions I described earlier 
(defun my-turn-bidi-on ()
  "Just start with  to R2L."
  (interactive)
  (setq  bidi-paragraph-direction 'right-to-left)
  (message "R2L on!"))

Then the cursor jumps to the right and behaves in a visual way as I
expect it to behave.
As a matter of fact this is the way I would like to write hebrew and not
via the input method.






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Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
   >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
   >> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 16:03:35 +0200
   >> 
   >> > Does it help to type "C-x C-+"?
   >> Only  a little bit, the ascii chars are getting really bigger the hebrew
   >> ones only a slightly bit. Do I need additional fonts (I am on (K)ubuntu 10.04)???

   > You need more/better fonts.

Thing is in OpenOffice I seem to have better hebrew fonts. How am I
supposed to use these in emacs? 

Years ago I had something like this 

alias eheb   'emacs -font "-m17n-mule-medium-r-normal--20-140-100-100-p-90-iso10646-1" -bg grey86 \!* &'

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Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 16:53:02 +0200
> 
>    > You need more/better fonts.
> 
> Any recommentations?

Not for Ubuntu.  I hope someone who uses that could tell you more.

>    >> That is why I use the input via KDE and that is why I need to turn on
>    >> R2L manually.
> 
>    > ??? I don't understand: as long as Emacs gets the correct characters,
>    > no matter how they were created, everything else, including paragraph
>    > direction, should "just work".
> 
> 
> Ok, the issue is with say C-c that will give C-hebrew-char with the KDE
> hebrew keyboard.

That's true, but unrelated to the directionality issue, see below.

> If I start to write hebrew the way you described it via the input
> method, then the cursor is at the left part of the buffer and does not
> move while the hebrew letters are written. 

I don't get the scenario, please describe what you do starting from
"emacs -Q".

> However when I use the functions I described earlier 
> (defun my-turn-bidi-on ()
>   "Just start with  to R2L."
>   (interactive)
>   (setq  bidi-paragraph-direction 'right-to-left)
>   (message "R2L on!"))
> 
> Then the cursor jumps to the right and behaves in a visual way as I
> expect it to behave.

In a buffer other than *scratch*, whenever the first character you
type is a Hebrew character, the cursor will automatically jump top the
right margin of the window.  (*scratch* and every other buffer
suitable for typing programs has its bidi-paragraph-direction set to
left-to-right by default.)

> As a matter of fact this is the way I would like to write hebrew and not
> via the input method.

Input method has nothing to do with paragraph direction, only with how
characters are inserted.

Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:



   >> If I start to write hebrew the way you described it via the input
   >> method, then the cursor is at the left part of the buffer and does not
   >> move while the hebrew letters are written. 

   > I don't get the scenario, please describe what you do starting from
   > "emacs -Q".


You are right, I have to admit.

However if I want to have one line us-ascii and the next line in hebrew,
without a empty line between them, then I have to use the function I
described, since I prefer to have the hebrew input always with the
cursor at the right position of the buffer. (Right as opposed to left,
not in the sense of correct).

But maybe this is my personal preference.

Thanks for the great work!



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Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:


   >> So maybe the best solution would be to provide also hebrew-phonetical[1]
   >> Because I am a little worried how KDE keyboard and nested text may work
   >> together.
   >> 
   >> I can give it a try to have also a hebrew-phonetical. Which are the
   >> files to be modified?

   > leim/quail/hebrew.el.
Ok just a question every different hebrew input method starts with 

(quail-define-package
 "hebrew-full" "Hebrew" "עִ֫" nil "Hebrew Full method.

What is  "עִ֫" suppose to mean? Shall I leave it? Change it?

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Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:


   > I don't get the scenario, please describe what you do starting from
   > "emacs -Q".

Are lisp files different? I did some testing and the scenario for
example occurs in the following file:


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Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:04:01 +0200
> 
> However if I want to have one line us-ascii and the next line in hebrew,
> without a empty line between them, then I have to use the function I
> described

The function you described will change the base direction for every
paragraph in the buffer, so you cannot have R2L paragraphs and L2R
paragraphs in the same buffer.  Sometimes this is what you will want,
sometimes not.

> since I prefer to have the hebrew input always with the cursor at
> the right position of the buffer.

Emacs keeps the cursor at its logical position.  As you well know,
when the text direction changes, there are 2 possible places to put
the cursor, so Emacs must pick up one of them.

Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:42:45 +0200
> 
> Ok just a question every different hebrew input method starts with 
> 
> (quail-define-package
>  "hebrew-full" "Hebrew" "עִ֫" nil "Hebrew Full method.
> 
> What is  "עִ֫" suppose to mean? Shall I leave it? Change it?

It's the mnemonics that is displayed in the mode line.  Each input
methods is supposed to have a different mnemonics, so ideally you
should change that for a new method.

Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 19:45:08 +0200
> 
> Are lisp files different? I did some testing and the scenario for
> example occurs in the following file:

Every major mode for a programming language by defaults sets
bidi-paragraph-direction to left-to-right, since anything else will
result in a horribly wrong display, should some "paragraph" begin with
a strong R2L character.

Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
   >> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
   >> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 18:42:45 +0200
   >> 
   >> Ok just a question every different hebrew input method starts with 
   >> 
   >> (quail-define-package
   >> "hebrew-full" "Hebrew" "עִ֫" nil "Hebrew Full method.
   >> 
   >> What is  "עִ֫" suppose to mean? Shall I leave it? Change it?

   > It's the mnemonics that is displayed in the mode line.  Each input
   > methods is supposed to have a different mnemonics, so ideally you
   > should change that for a new method.


Ok, here is a patch for the phonetic keyboard.

Sorry since it contains no ascii chars, I decide to use application/octet-stream
which usually should be avoided.


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Re: some progress

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:46:08 +0200
> 
> Ok, here is a patch for the phonetic keyboard.

Thanks.  A few suggestions below.

Also, if we are to accept this, we will need a copyright assignment
from you.

> + ("A" ?א)  ; Alef
> + ("B" ?ב)  ; Bet

This wastes keys, since 'a' is also mapped to aleph.  Wouldn't it make
more sense to have upper-case vowels to produce nikkud instead?  E.g.,
'A' could produce 'ַ' (u+05b7), 'E' could produce 'ֶ' (u+05b6), 'I'
could produce 'ִ', etc.  Upper-case consonants could then produce
letters with dagesh or other diacrticals, like 'בּ' for 'B' etc.

> + ("O" ?ס)  ; Samekh

It is IMO better to use 's' for samekh, 'S' for sin, and leave 'O' for
vav or perhaps even וֹ.  Also, I see no shin at all; perhaps 'w' would
be a good candidate.

> + ("R" ?ר)  ; Resh
> + ("R" ?ר)  ; Resh

Why twice?

> + ("." ?.)  ; Stop

Why do you need this identity mapping?

> + ("[" ?\])  ; mirroring
> + ("]" ?\[)  ; mirroring
> + ("(" ?\))  ; mirroring
> + (")" ?\()  ; mirroring
> + ("{" ?})  ; mirroring
> + ("}" ?{)  ; mirroring
> + ("<" ?>)  ; mirroring
> + (">" ?<)  ; mirroring

What about / and \ ?

Re: some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

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>> "Eli" == Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

   >> From: Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es>
   >> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2013 21:46:08 +0200
   >> 
   >> Ok, here is a patch for the phonetic keyboard.

   > Thanks.  A few suggestions below.

I am sorry to have sent the patch  without extensive testing, 

   > Also, if we are to accept this, we will need a copyright assignment
   > from you.

Of course, but how? Could I sent a pgp signed assignment?

   >> + ("A" ?א)  ; Alef
   >> + ("B" ?ב)  ; Bet


Ok before going to the errors, some remarks about the keyboard in
question.

For those of us, who use Hebrew only occasionally the standard Hebrew
keyboard needs too much of adaptation to be practical [1].

There is a lot of polemics about what would be a good substitute and as
I understand it you can either

    -  have a phonetic approach: try to map the hebrew letters to its
       phonetic relatives in  us-ascii like bet-->b or

    -  try to use the forms of the letters, so shin-->w samesh-->o.


Now the keyboard I am referring to is the Hebrew-phonetic keyboard
provided by KDE, I don't know whether there is a gnome version and I
also don't know whether MS windows or Apple provide something
similar. 

The keyboard, I admit, is not entirely consistent. As you complained
o-->samesh but w--> wav. 

Nevertheless I think it should be accepted as it is, because now there
are a couple of applications with BIDI support in Linux: besides LyX,
Kile and Openoffice (I am sure there are more). 

When I used Hebrew in Lyx I could configure my own hebrew-phonetic
keyboard, but I don't know how to do this for openoffice and kile, I
even don't know whether it is possible or one should then re configure
the KDE layout. 

Since this KDE layout is some sort of standard (in the KDE world) I
think it is worth to have it in GNU emacs. Maybe we should name it
hebrew-phonetic-kde or something like this. I attach a file in which you
can see the distribution of the kde-keyboard and which is an answer to
most of your critics.



[snip]


   >> + ("R" ?ר)  ; Resh
   >> + ("R" ?ר)  ; Resh

   > Why twice?

My fault! I also forgot shin!

   >> + ("." ?.)  ; Stop

   > Why do you need this identity mapping?

   >> + ("[" ?\])  ; mirroring
   >> + ("]" ?\[)  ; mirroring
   >> + ("(" ?\))  ; mirroring
   >> + (")" ?\()  ; mirroring
   >> + ("{" ?})  ; mirroring
   >> + ("}" ?{)  ; mirroring
   >> + ("<" ?>)  ; mirroring
   >> + (">" ?<)  ; mirroring

Well this I just copied from other layout found in the hebrew.el
file. If it is not necessary we can delete it.
   > What about / and \ ?

Now I am not sure that it is really needed.

Uwe 



Footnotes:
[1]  I wounder whether it was Eliezer Ben-Yehuda himself who invented
     it. :-D


[-- Attachment #1.2: hebrew-phonetic --]
[-- Type: application/octet-stream, Size: 264 bytes --]

a א
b ב
c צ
d ד
e א
f פ
g ג
h ה
i י
j י
k כ
l ל
m מ
n נ
o ס
p פ
q ק
r ר
s ש
t ת
u ו
v ו
w ו
x ח
y ע
z ז
  
A א
B ב
C צ
D ד
E א
F ף
G ג
H ה
I י
J י
K ך
L ל
M ם
N ן
O ס
P ף
Q ק
R ר
S ש
T ט
U ו
V ו
W ו
X ח
Y ע
Z ז


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tag search seems not to work.

[Uwe Brauer]

Hi

I am using GNU emacs 25.1.50 (compiled yesterday) and the latest org
version available in ELPA.

I really never used tag search as provided by the agenda. So today I
just copied the examples of
http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/advanced-searching.html



* TODO Buy clothes for wedding                    :wedding:important:errands:
 SCHEDULED: <2010-12-01 Wed>
 :PROPERTIES:
 :estimated-cost: 100
 :END:
 [2010-11-17 Wed 12:22]

 I need to look spiffy for the big day!

  - [ ] Suit
  - [ ] Tie
  - [ ] Shoes
  - [ ] Hat

 Possible stores to visit:
 
 | Store           | Location               | Miles away |
 |-----------------+------------------------+------------|
 | The Suit King   | 1000 E. Washington St. |        5.1 |
 | Mr. Haberdasher | 259 Western Rd.        |        7.2 |


Into an org file and run, as indicated 

C-m a
and then I searched for wedding,

However nothing was found, I expected, as in occur, a buffer showing me
all the tags matching my search criterion, but there was none.

What do I miss?

thanks

Uwe Brauer 

Some progress (was: tag search seems not to work.)

[Uwe Brauer]

>>> "Uwe" == Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

   > Hi

   > I really never used tag search as provided by the agenda. So today I
   > just copied the examples of
   > http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/advanced-searching.html



   > * TODO Buy clothes for wedding                    :wedding:important:errands:
   >  SCHEDULED: <2010-12-01 Wed>
   >  :PROPERTIES:
   >  :estimated-cost: 100
   >  :END:
   >  [2010-11-17 Wed 12:22]

   >  I need to look spiffy for the big day!

   >   - [ ] Suit
   >   - [ ] Tie
   >   - [ ] Shoes
   >   - [ ] Hat

   >  Possible stores to visit:
 
   >  | Store           | Location               | Miles away |
   >  |-----------------+------------------------+------------|
   >  | The Suit King   | 1000 E. Washington St. |        5.1 |
   >  | Mr. Haberdasher | 259 Western Rd.        |        7.2 |


   > Into an org file and run, as indicated 

   > C-m a
   > and then I searched for wedding,

   > However nothing was found, I expected, as in occur, a buffer showing me
   > all the tags matching my search criterion, but there was none.

   > What do I miss?

It seems that I have to add the file in which I am searching to the list
of agenda files (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24966333/emacs-org-mode-tags-not-found)
that however is not described in the manual nor is it intuitive.

Now I can search and find tags in headings, but I cannot find
properties, how do I find these?

thanks

Uwe Brauer 

Re: Some progress

[Marco Wahl]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>>>> "Uwe" == Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
>    > I really never used tag search as provided by the agenda. So today I
>    > just copied the examples of
>    > http://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/advanced-searching.html
>
>    > * TODO Buy clothes for wedding                    :wedding:important:errands:
>    >  SCHEDULED: <2010-12-01 Wed>
>    >  :PROPERTIES:
>    >  :estimated-cost: 100
>    >  :END:
>    >  [2010-11-17 Wed 12:22]
>
> [...]
>    > However nothing was found, I expected, as in occur, a buffer showing me
>    > all the tags matching my search criterion, but there was none.
>
>    > What do I miss?
>
> It seems that I have to add the file in which I am searching to the
> list of agenda files
> (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/24966333/emacs-org-mode-tags-not-found)
> that however is not described in the manual nor is it intuitive.

I disagree.  The agenda is based on agenda files.  So it's clear that
the agenda-tag-search applies only to the agenda files.  And it's in the
manual in section (info "(org) Tag searches").

> Now I can search and find tags in headings, but I cannot find
> properties, how do I find these?

* TODO Buy clothes for wedding
 :PROPERTIES:
 :estimated_cost: 100
 :END:

C-c a m estimated_cost="100"

finds the subtree.

Note the underscore instead of the hyphen.  '-' in the property name
breaks the search AFAICS.

See further (info "(org) Tag searches") which also has something about
searching for tags in the current buffer.


Best regards,
-- 
Marco Wahl -- GPG: 0x49010A040A3AE6F2

Re: Some progress

[Uwe Brauer]

>>> "Marco" == Marco Wahl <marcowahlsoft@gmail.com> writes:

    > Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:
    >>>>> "Uwe" == Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

    > I disagree.  The agenda is based on agenda files.  So it's clear that
    > the agenda-tag-search applies only to the agenda files.  And it's in the
    > manual in section (info "(org) Tag searches").


Well ok, I found the paragraph in question, you are right, 

    >> Now I can search and find tags in headings, but I cannot find
    >> properties, how do I find these?

    > * TODO Buy clothes for wedding
    >  :PROPERTIES:
    >  :estimated_cost: 100
    >  :END:

    > C-c a m estimated_cost="100"

    > finds the subtree.

    > Note the underscore instead of the hyphen.  '-' in the property name
    > breaks the search AFAICS.

    > See further (info "(org) Tag searches") which also has something about
    > searching for tags in the current buffer.

Thanks!

But, the point is: suppose I do not recall the exact content of that
property, so I would like to search for all PROPERTIES which contain
estimated_cost. How can I do that?

It seems that (org-entry-properties nil) is the command in question



regards

Uwe 

Re: Some progress

[Marco Wahl]

Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> writes:

>
>     > * TODO Buy clothes for wedding
>     >  :PROPERTIES:
>     >  :estimated_cost: 100
>     >  :END:
>
>     > C-c a m estimated_cost="100"
>
>     > finds the subtree.
>
>     > Note the underscore instead of the hyphen.  '-' in the property name
>     > breaks the search AFAICS.
>
>     > See further (info "(org) Tag searches") which also has something about
>     > searching for tags in the current buffer.
>
> Thanks!
>
> But, the point is: suppose I do not recall the exact content of that
> property, so I would like to search for all PROPERTIES which contain
> estimated_cost. How can I do that?

What about just searching the text?

C-c a / :estimated_cost:


Ciao,
-- 
Marco Wahl -- GPG: 0x49010A040A3AE6F2