From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:50:07 +0200 Message-ID: <84a6eb94-4992-46eb-b753-7f0122396991@aol.com> References: <87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <20180825103413.gbm5stsl67j6weow@Ergus> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----EN0YEXDJL9EENZSQN1TU0J856Y21C3" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535231098 27274 195.159.176.226 (25 Aug 2018 21:04:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 21:04:58 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Android Cc: hw@adminart.net, Eli Zaretskii , flexibeast@gmail.com, emacs-devel To: Radon Rosborough Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Aug 25 23:04:54 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ftfjp-0006zm-K4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 23:04:53 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47056 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ftflv-0006cr-R5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 17:07:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42962) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ftflf-0006XV-07 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 17:06:51 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ftfVz-0003mn-KD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 16:50:38 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic310-13.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.177.34]:37608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ftfVz-0003lr-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 16:50:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535230234; bh=SP6d3ubjGf3IM89+Q3b1SpLOyK61ZEGeD4ADSEsC9Co=; h=In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Date:To:From:Subject; b=O+IDvkbijN17wNw5ZERw+nYtHcqQkb4mY/hqPsWXYR/wKHJGC4JvNXKVGgGkVPJj4pjNkPpBnqiD4tcrOjj8IP+CE5e4uu0ZizhyDsdGBBss3xHNJZXKRGCVxDmCLxWvYn3VzOgDslWTpR7nL1xoMoMhCc/LZ6BogeEUeJktLjQj0dn3QiUSp1NpdTwb7f1XE5BxVus6VZXOF2KAxLDMLsNgWFvqNdvtdP73Lp7vhUKmw/O7FmCOd9uk4my/8hMcFsNhQIw1/YhWClwdBVdxU4JfcR9ge6SAozhnO6B3yPV9Oef0RzpPW/T6VIvsJCaGabVNiO8hAoLkxPSxWtC1Vg== X-YMail-OSG: 3IWH8tQVM1kq9eopeVadjNy8tebqpfjLPgzVdvfGjoko6uXM3VqAXjN_c0yU_kp bQ81Y1BwNARpfeJ6rW6Ljm.abMuDmkdINut1PJukKFBGi13.489mLW8KChB3xR3VU..rYQLDEsXs kOw_vK4WBo.R.dNHDFs5zqBukJFvJVszJfOeCACC8EwfCD_r8x4Hf4YJIllPHADYn2bNz6uXIbLN St0gbFcGB8z2NUNAfC1CHdzxHRzhq6dURJSn4jl90n_fFV88xUVez.ia9wTZtTLbBczyRF4pTPn0 aEJCJP6C45xSFDGPYiOSZ1HnnwAiLi3Q1Qtt1DF2pg1aucBtQzXySK3MC0Mq0F9ujH6P95VxiF5K 3tsvz_lpo8WFBdXTKOAZV00IjTeVaBEf0YS9Ynqzv_tOZQT1hqI5AFPNr_CuQEkOFRpsTlFCsMKy IgYtur4gEdwRe_q4XBcQWhvBJkQqdtIx9fR0SuNyrkI5ncVOQk3OV1JzuwvGtJtnCWmGS2HXIsbn x02kQ5_peqD7RH83mNQo55yXOGOG2xKyqKSNFSONbMtfyAs.6j2hudDrmk.L5HLc3FHWc011BpHV tHCuOn8piACTnnbg1SgsZ4cqUIb5EbJOZH6GLPBlHS4la2G2XBkPOMyQto1FBbrcRxK31eDPZLdT nhjxWjzDpRA7ZbVn9kt2DH.k9cD6jAz.vKyYqizNVpFg7EE9JIuZA7cBK.GC2usFhB1kadgqNDHw KtgklI_Zv5vDFJCaCVVpTdnba6xJ.3lM6kl7QAXUf4rr_vGJvQYuGdQ9bsvJ3_ZtX5mu3plzibTB 2ifgqk3ij5XxweG.0Kitp38pN1F1NR22DjcAbbNdPy Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 20:50:34 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO [192.168.1.6]) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp428.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5e165b107fdc770ed28b046d17f1ae72; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 20:50:30 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: X-Referenced-Uid: 331 Thread-Topic: Re: Some developement questions X-Is-Generated-Message-Id: true X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.177.34 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:228914 Archived-At: ------EN0YEXDJL9EENZSQN1TU0J856Y21C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 =E2=81=A3Sent from BlueMail =E2=80=8B On 25 Aug 2018, 18:14, at 18:14, R= adon Rosborough wrote: >> If the messages are ju= st printed in the message buffer it shouldn't >> impact too much the startu= p time I think=2E > >To do the kind of analysis you are talking about, one = would have to >hook into really basic subroutines like `setq`=2E I don't ha= ve any >numbers to back this up, but that sounds like it would be a massive= >slowdown for all Elisp code=2E Alternatively, you'd have to do a lot of >= heavy static analysis because what defines a "outdated, deprecated, or >use= less" setting is actually quite nebulous and complicated=2E > >I do actuall= y think this is an interesting idea, but it would >definitely best be imple= mented as either a third-party package or some >optional user library in co= re that either does static analysis or >allows one to load the init-file wi= th profiling enabled like ESUP [1] >(or both)=2E > >> a number of people fi= nd even an extra 0=2E5s-1=2E0s in startup to be >> significant > >I am one = of those people, and actually I find even an extra 50ms of >startup time to= be unacceptable unless there's a good reason for it=2E >My ~5,000 line con= figuration [2] which pulls in ~130 packages takes >only ~250ms to load, acc= ording to a startup profiler -- meaning 0=2E6s >to go from nothing to a ful= l graphical frame=2E > >Why bother with the Emacs server when you can just = make Emacs start up >as fast as Vim? ;) > >[1]: https://github=2Ecom/jschaf= /esup >[2]: https://github=2Ecom/raxod502/radian ------EN0YEXDJL9EENZSQN1TU0J856Y21C3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Sent from
On 25 Aug 2018, at 18:14, Radon Rosborough <radon=2Eneon@gmail=2Eco= m> wrote:
> If the messages are just printed in the m= essage buffer it shouldn't
> impact too much the startu= p time I think=2E

To do the kind of analysis you are= talking about, one would have to
hook into really basic s= ubroutines like `setq`=2E I don't have any
numbers to back= this up, but that sounds like it would be a massive
slowd= own for all Elisp code=2E Alternatively, you'd have to do a lot of
=
heavy static analysis because what defines a "outdated, deprecated= , or
useless" setting is actually quite nebulous and compl= icated=2E

I do actually think this is an interesting= idea, but it would
definitely best be implemented as eith= er a third-party package or some
optional user library in = core that either does static analysis or
allows one to loa= d the init-file with profiling enabled like ESUP [1]
(or b= oth)=2E

> a number of people find even an extra 0= =2E5s-1=2E0s in startup to be
> significant
I am one of those people, and actually I find even an extra 50m= s of
startup time to be unacceptable unless there's a good= reason for it=2E
My ~5,000 line configuration [2] which p= ulls in ~130 packages takes
only ~250ms to load, according= to a startup profiler -- meaning 0=2E6s
to go from nothin= g to a full graphical frame=2E

Why bother with the= Emacs server when you can just make Emacs start up
as fas= t as Vim? ;)
-------
I am a server user=2E But I dont a= ccept anything that impacts badly performance=2E Thats why I would prefer a= real lisp to gcc compiler in emacs instead of a jit compiler for example= =2E I am so tired to heard vim users talking about how fast it is=2E=2E=2E= =2E

Never the less my initial intention was orient= ed only to the first startup without a config for newies=2E So there is not= hing about the possible implementations on the table yet=2E First we need t= o get some information from the user=2E Because sometimes it looks like dev= elopers forget that isers are the key=2E

Does anyo= ne care about the questions I added? Or at least could anyone tell me if th= ere is a good online platform I could use for the feedback?
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