From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai =?iso-8859-1?q?Gro=DFjohann?=) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: 8859 unification and Emacs' ChangeLog files Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 18:50:16 +0200 Organization: University of Duisburg, Germany Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <8465pvo793.fsf@lucy.is.informatik.uni-duisburg.de> References: <848yuy3xab.fsf@lucy.is.informatik.uni-duisburg.de> <200303310045.JAA14857@etlken.m17n.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1049392622 29824 80.91.224.249 (3 Apr 2003 17:57:02 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:57:02 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 03 19:57:00 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1918xP-0007kN-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 19:56:59 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 1918z5-0006i7-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 19:58:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 1918wn-0005mU-06 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:56:21 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 1918vf-0005NW-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:55:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.10.13) id 1918uq-0004ag-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:54:21 -0500 Original-Received: from main.gmane.org ([80.91.224.249]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.10.13) id 1918tJ-0003gm-00 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 12:52:45 -0500 Original-Received: from list by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1918sP-0007En-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 19:51:49 +0200 Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-Received: from news by main.gmane.org with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1918rG-00076I-00 for ; Thu, 03 Apr 2003 19:50:38 +0200 Original-Lines: 74 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org Mail-Copies-To: never User-Agent: Gnus/5.090018 (Oort Gnus v0.18) Emacs/21.3.50 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:erQug3SiwoZ7bRT1/RPN6xbBqyk= X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:12871 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:12871 Kenichi Handa writes: > In article <848yuy3xab.fsf@lucy.is.informatik.uni-duisburg.de>, kai.grossjohann@gmx.net (Kai Großjohann) writes: >> I've learned the hard way that unify-8859-on-decoding-mode mangles >> Emacs' ChangeLog files. Now Simon (see Cc) has shown me that it is >> possible to turn unification off for certain encodings. > >> Do you think it might be good to turn it off for iso-2022-7bit? > [...] >> Simon's Lisp was: (coding-system-put 'iso-2022-7bit >> 'translation-table-for-decode (make-translation-table)) > > Yes, it works because it overrides the translation table > created by unify-8859-on-decoding-mode. > > But, it results in that a Latin-2 char read by iso-2022-7bit > is different from what read by iso-latin-2. I don't think > such a change is a good idea. Well, without unification, a Latin-2 character read from a Latin-1 file is different from the same character read from a Latin-2 file. >> Maybe that would make it possible to turn unify-8859-on-decoding-mode >> on by default? > > It will stop unibyte<->multibyte automatic conversion in any > single byte lang. env. (e.g. Latin-X, Greek) except for > Latin-1. What do you mean by "it"? Do you mean unify-8859-on-decoding-mode generally, or do you mean unify-8859-on-decoding-mode with Simon's add-on? > I think unify-8859-on-decoding-mode is still only for those > people who knows the consequence of the command well. I know that unify-8859-on-decoding-mode is harmful for Emacs' ChangeLog files, because they distinguish between the various iso-8859 charsets. But if all Emacs developers enable unify-8859-on-decoding-mode, then this is not a problem anymore. Or the ChangeLog files could be stored as UTF-8. Of course, there might be other files where iso-8859 characters might be present in different encodings. Is it right to say that these files must be encoded in iso-2022 or in emacs-mule, because no other encodings distinguish between Latin-1 ä and Latin-2 ä, say? If I understand correctly, Emacs 22 will automatically unify all iso-8859 charsets, so the same ChangeLog problem will occur there, right? Or is Emacs 22 going to enable distinguishing between Latin-1 ä and Latin-2 ä for iso-2022 files somehow? It seems that Europeans are really interested in more 8859 unification. Now that unify-8859-on-encoding-mode is on by default, they are somewhat happier. But even with this enabled, people in a Latin-9 locale can't search UTF-8 files well: when they hit the ä key, they are searching for a Latin-9 ä whereas there is a Latin-1 ä in the buffer. Or take me, personally: I use the german-prefix input method which produces Latin-1 characters, but I'm running in a Latin-9 locale so that the buffers contain the `wrong' characters. At the moment, I tell them that I don't turn on unify-8859-on-decoding-mode because then I can't edit the Emacs ChangeLog files anymore. If any of the previous message sounds weird, that might be because I fail to fully grok the problem. I apologize. I'm looking at it from a European point of view, so I might miss important points. -- A preposition is not a good thing to end a sentence with.