From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `' Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 17:51:51 +0200 Message-ID: <83zjnextyg.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20131229220810.GF7972@boo.workgroup> <52C0E734.4090403@cs.ucla.edu> <83sita1cbw.fsf@gnu.org> <52C1C456.2080004@cs.ucla.edu> <83fvpa16kh.fsf@gnu.org> <52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu> <8338l91l2t.fsf@gnu.org> <52C4C95C.2010905@cs.ucla.edu> <837gajyrq1.fsf@gnu.org> <52C4F008.5060003@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388677934 27571 80.91.229.3 (2 Jan 2014 15:52:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2014 15:52:14 +0000 (UTC) Cc: grfz@gmx.de, 16292@debbugs.gnu.org To: Paul Eggert , Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 02 16:52:19 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZH-0007UG-0v for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 16:52:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45862 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZG-00057g-O0 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:52:18 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53254) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZ6-0004tb-QQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:52:13 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZ1-0004ts-QL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:52:08 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:44109) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZ1-0004tY-CS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:52:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VykZ0-000759-Kw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:52:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2014 15:52:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 16292 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 16292-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B16292.138867791927212 (code B ref 16292); Thu, 02 Jan 2014 15:52:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 16292) by debbugs.gnu.org; 2 Jan 2014 15:51:59 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58128 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VykYw-00074p-14 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:51:58 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:52405) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VykYt-00074d-Bj for 16292@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 10:51:56 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MYS00I006P0CH00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for 16292@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 17:51:54 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MYS00INZ6QF6230@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Thu, 02 Jan 2014 17:51:52 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <52C4F008.5060003@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:82832 Archived-At: > Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2014 20:50:16 -0800 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: 16292@debbugs.gnu.org, grfz@gmx.de > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Thanks, but this should be the default, or at least should be used > > when producing the release tarball. > > No, the point is that the release tarball contains UTF-8 > info files, and that these are transformed to ASCII for installations > that prefer ASCII info files. But does "make install" really cut that? How many end users on a typical Posix platform will build and install their own Emacs? I thought the majority installs from ready-to-run packages nowadays, and in that case "make install" was already run by someone else, with who knows what configure-time options. > cp-ascii's UTF8-to-ASCII transformation loses information; we can't > ship ASCII info files in the tarball and then transform those to the > UTF-8 originals. That's because your Sed script goes too far, IMO: it can be limited to editing only the markup and the => arrows, and leave the other non-ASCII characters intact. Then there will be no information loss, just a different (some will say less pretty) display of that information. > An ASCII default would have been better years ago, but these days > UTF-8 is the typical default encoding in GNUish distributions and > most users will be better off if UTF-8 is the default. I agree, when it comes to non-ASCII text. But I see no reason for such a strong preference when it comes to the Info markup. I find that a purely aesthetic consideration with no real functionality behind it. (It can even hurt: e.g., on one of my machines, the Unicode quotes look pale and not so pretty at all, I guess the font I'm using is not the best one for those characters.) To summarize, I see the following possible ways to solve this issue: 1) Do nothing. This is a temporary measure at best and doesn't make much sense; I mention it here only for completeness. Sooner or later we will have to do something. 2) Use "@documentencoding ISO-8859-1" in any manual that needs to include non-ASCII characters. This is what we did a year ago, although a couple of manuals had utf-8 in them; they can all be converted to use Latin-1. The advantage is that this leaves the markup intact; the disadvantage is that most locales will not display the non-ASCII text correctly these days. 3) Install Paul's script, which will be run at "make install" time, either by default, or given a configure time option. (We could also make this "make install" time option.) If we go this way, I think we should leave Unicode characters that are not Info markup alone, and not edit them. 4) Use --disable-encoding switch to makeinfo, again either by default or given some non-default option. This avoids the need for a separate Sed script, but has a complication: makeinfo 4.13, which I presume is still in use and which we want to support, did not emit the 'coding' cookie when --disable-encoding was specified. OTOH, makeinfo 4.13 didn't emit Unicode quotes when --enable-encoding was specified. So if we go this way, we will need to detect the makeinfo version and use the right switch. 5) Add a feature to info.el that will set up a display table for Info buffers, and use that display table to display quotes and arrows on TTYs that don't support UTF-8. Then Paul's changes to use "@documentencoding utf-8" everywhere can be re-installed with no additional changes. However, unlike all the other alternatives, this one solves the problem only for the Emacs Info reader, and leaves the problem with the stand-alone Info reader to the Texinfo maintainers. If someone has other suggestions, please raise them. Otherwise, I guess it's decision time.