From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 16:32:50 +0200 Message-ID: <83zh2c7bal.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> <87czz8n1gk.fsf@gnus.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15432"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 17 15:33:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpuLs-0003uk-Hg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 15:33:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39602 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpuLr-0004ME-Gu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:33:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56822) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpuKt-0003vK-28 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:32:55 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52711) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpuKs-0006Qe-Da; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:32:54 -0500 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4021 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kpuKq-0007l0-QL; Thu, 17 Dec 2020 09:32:54 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87czz8n1gk.fsf@gnus.org> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:58:35 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261108 Archived-At: > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2020 11:58:35 +0100 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Dmitry Gutov writes: > > >> I mean, look at the toolbar that happens when you "emacs -Q": You get an > >> Emacs with a scratch buffer... with a "Save" icon. In a buffer that > >> can't be saved. That's how much attention we've spent on toolbars in > >> two decades. > > > > Well, it actually can be saved, as soon as you type something (C-x C-s > > works), and it's one of the real usage patterns. The button doesn't > > indicate that, though. > > Yeah, the save button stays grayed out and you can't click it, which I > take to be an indication that this toolbar hasn't gotten a lot of love. ??? I'd say it's the other way around: they are insensitive _because_ someone thought about avoiding to trip the user. > I just had a peek at the toolbar in *Help* -- it includes things like > "Save" and "Undo". No wonder most people disable the thing. I don't understand what you'd like to have instead. Would you like Emacs to instead constantly add and remove tool-bar buttons as they become available/not available? I think this would be much more annoying, and will cause even more people to disable the tool bar. Making a tool bar insensitive is a standard UI way of telling users: don't click on this, it will do nothing useful at this time.