From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:26:51 +0200 Message-ID: <83zfxbk6x0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83frz4mmef.fsf@gnu.org> <83frz3lxg3.fsf@gnu.org> <83a5pblumn.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8475"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: pertusus@free.fr, jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Gavin Smith Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 11 20:28:01 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rO0if-00020g-CS for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 20:28:01 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rO0ia-0007eB-AO; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:27:56 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rO0iS-0007do-5O; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:27:48 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rO0iO-0005Or-OC; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:27:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=ut5MQQc4zmC1e+iVI94x829EXSomRfDEWENtoC/yXQw=; b=lnkJFJlGiTRpFoRiGa5d 5qnSu9VRXdu3NYpom5v+p9l3qLYjhe8ktiUUvRi1IbGzTyl8nOGG7+TFUKpRS0WE9fyJLbWRX1Y+l ceqUFeRcatz0sdOmi885BumP6wiFXlXeibA+AmWBkK5/zeQ6jqcpLsLSxVeyxVc/EvFiOeuLobIvz 57Q0Hp+B6Eu6o+rKWW9gRJeI715UDAYn/a5luYbb3GDc4jebCxZCVHPMzZggEtL6ZxxEWHeiTOKKj eEfyvhlaEdi/EymH18+3HATNe6/w9GWhZ3jjXMbFPIu1sziM3M1tdF5M1bvh+39kgVcj6jV4X9u2P 6DFvEJxfAFM59w==; In-Reply-To: (message from Gavin Smith on Thu, 11 Jan 2024 18:22:03 +0000) X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3410 gmane.emacs.devel:314871 Archived-At: > From: Gavin Smith > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 18:22:03 +0000 > Cc: Patrice Dumas , > jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, > stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 06:09:20PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > The node name may be visible in the output, so if English node names are > > > used they won't be in the translated manual language. So I do not think > > > that is it correct, in general, to use the English node names even if > > > they link to the correct node in a translated manual with English node > > > names as anchors. > > > > Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. What do you mean by > > "visible in the output"? which output? > > The Info output, I believe. Suppose there is a cross-reference to a node > in the Emacs manual, "Select Buffer". This would appear in Info output > as "*note (emacs)Select Buffer::." The English words "Select Buffer" > would appear incongruous surrounded by non-English text. But so is "note", and you said we won't (and probably cannot) use something else instead. So English is already there. > The problem with translating the node name is that a simple > cross-reference like "note (emacs)Choisir Tampon" would not work if > the manual and node did not exist. First Info would have to know > the preferred language of the manual to find, and find a manual > "emacs-fr.info". Then, if the manual does exist, the person > translating the manual may not have used that translation. If they had > called it "Sélectionner buffer" instead it wouldn't be found. Any manual > being translated would likely reference several others, many of which > will not have existing translations. It's not right for a translator > just to make up their own translations of node names for manuals > which haven't been translated yet. Right. > Although it's not ideal, using cross-reference labels may be the best > solution. It would be a temporary solution if the targetted manual > obtained an English translation later. Once that is the case, the > first manual could be updated with the translated node name, so > "*note Choisir Tampon:(emacs)Select Buffer." becomes > "*note (emacs)Choisir Tampon::", eliminating the English. You mean, the Info reader should do that? It would mean that the Info reader will need to access all its cross-manual links in a node before it can display the node with or without the English node names. > Automatic processing of other translated manuals could make node name > translations easily available. You could imagine an Emacs command used > by a translator that would look up equivalent node and anchor names in > Texinfo documents, if they exist. For example, if a translator translates > a file containing "@ref{Select Buffer,, emacs, The Emacs Editor}" and > supposing that emacs-fr.texi did exist with "@node Choisir Tampon" and > "@anchor{Select Buffer}" immediately after, the software could make > the @node name available to use in translating this @ref. This would > require a translator to have the other translated manuals on their machines, > but you could imagine the same system working on an abbreviated version > of the manuals that solely had @node lines with following @anchor commands. > > This all seems to me to be something to be worked out in software used > by translators as well as possibly processes to be followed by translation > teams. Right.