From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A better autogen.sh Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:54:57 +0200 Message-ID: <83y64eq4ji.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87y66fv2d3.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <4D388F7F.20708@swipnet.se> <87r5c7jk5m.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <4D39EF9C.1050804@cs.ucla.edu> <4D3A8666.4070609@cs.ucla.edu> <877hdvd49f.fsf@meyering.net> <83mxmrzhb6.fsf@gnu.org> <4D3C9C5B.8050303@cs.ucla.edu> <4D7FDFB0.6020203@cs.ucla.edu> <4D7FEF16.7040107@cs.ucla.edu> <8362rjr9po.fsf@gnu.org> <4hk4fzsnv8.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <4D805B3F.1030900@cs.ucla.edu> <4D807E05.4000600@cs.ucla.edu> <4D80F8F3.8030909@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1300301765 19157 80.91.229.12 (16 Mar 2011 18:56:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:56:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Mar 16 19:55:58 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Pzvt0-0005W2-F5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:55:58 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:41017 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pzvsz-0006t0-QJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:55:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=38101 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Pzvsu-0006sl-Rf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:55:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pzvst-0001u6-9G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:55:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:54963) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Pzvst-0001u2-0z; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:55:51 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0LI500300Z5YTZ00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:54:58 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.124.107.218]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0LI50026EZ7JR7C0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:54:58 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <4D80F8F3.8030909@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-Received-From: 80.179.55.172 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:137307 Archived-At: > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 10:52:51 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert > CC: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > I could understand an argument that supporting Unix-like platforms is > > easier. (And even the "easier" argument is IMO minor, looking at all > > the stuff in lib/ that is needed to support those Unix-like non-GNU > > platforms.) > > But that's exactly the point. We cannot avoid the need to > have porting support. But we can separate porting concerns > from mainline development concerns. The stuff in lib/ is separate, > and people who aren't worried about porting to non-GNU platforms > don't need to worry about lib/. Not true. Anyone who makes changes to the build process or any files that are related to the build process _must_ worry about lib/, because without understanding how it works and how it affects the rest of the code it is very easy to break something, especially if some obscure use case is involved that will not pop up until much later. Moreover, even code reading requires awareness of the stuff in lib/. For example, without knowing that there are wrappers for system headers there, it is impossible to understand how certain parts of Emacs code work on any given platform. IOW, the lib/ stuff is anything but transparent. Much less transparent, in fact, than the Windows-specific Makefile templates. > The Microsoft ports should be more like that: they should be > separated from the mainline code, and kept in their own msdos/ and > nt/ subdirectories, and ordinary Emacs development should not have > to worry about them. "Separated" does not mean "segregated" or "ostracized". People who happen to use and build the Windows port are responsible for non-trivial contributions to Emacs development that are certainly no less than yours, see the logs. They don't deserve this kind of attitude, under which it is okay to make their life miserable and every other day break the port they use, in the name of lopsided ideological arguments. I cannot begin to express how disappointed I am to get this kind of attitude from one of the most veteran members of the GNU project. > Of course this is just a goal and practical compromises must be > made in some cases. Currently, though, there are too many instances > of material in the mainstream repository areas only because of Microsoft, > these instances make it harder to do mainstream development, > and we should therefore encourage attempts to move this material > into msdos/ and nt/. "Too many" is a wild exaggeration. I doubt that you'd be able to point out more than 1 or 2 that are not clearly marked either by their names or parent directory. Anyway, this is not about moving stuff, but about removing it (or not updating it, which is effectively the same).