bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Drew Adams]

Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
in the echo area and expect users to see it.

The UI for `find-file-literally' depends on `resize-mini-windows' being
non-nil.  Not a good idea.  To see how bad it can be, set
`resize-mini-windows' to nil, then visit a file, then try to visit it
using `M-x find-file-literally'.  You see only this line in the echo
area, which is not even a question:

  The file foo.el is already visited normally.

Huh?  A user who sees that has no clue as to what is going on.

Beyond this design being incredibly ill-advised in general, it breaks
the use of a standalone minibuffer frame, for which
`resize-mini-windows' has no effect.  In my code, for example, I do this,
where `'1on1-fit-minibuffer-frame' resizes the minibuffer frame to fit
its current contents:

  (add-hook 'post-command-hook '1on1-fit-minibuffer-frame)

That of course has no effect during `read-key', which is what is used by
`y-or-n-p' (which is used by `find-file-literally').

`1on1-fit-minibuffer-frame' is also a command that increases the
minibuffer frame height by a line when it is repeated.  It is bound
in the minibuffer to `C-o'.  But of course that is ineffective for
something like `y-or-n-p', which does not use the minibuffer.

Please reimplement the multiple-line message and associated y-or-n
question for `find-file-literally', so that the message part is visible
somewhere outside of the echo area.  Pop up a separate window for it,
show it in a tooltip, or show it any number of other reasonable ways.


In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2014-08-15 on LEG570
Bzr revision: 117706 rgm@gnu.org-20140815043406-p5hbu97cbm7pulcn
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 `configure --enable-checking 'CFLAGS=-O0 -g3' CPPFLAGS=-DGLYPH_DEBUG=1'

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
> in the echo area and expect users to see it.
>
> The UI for `find-file-literally' depends on `resize-mini-windows' being
> non-nil.  Not a good idea.  To see how bad it can be, set
> `resize-mini-windows' to nil, then visit a file, then try to visit it
> using `M-x find-file-literally'.  You see only this line in the echo
> area, which is not even a question:
>
>   The file foo.el is already visited normally.

We should perhaps consider obsoleting `resize-mini-windows'.  Emacs has
many prompts now that don't make sense in a single line.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Wed, 04 May 2016 02:59:36 +0200
> Cc: 18340@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> 
> > Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
> > in the echo area and expect users to see it.
> >
> > The UI for `find-file-literally' depends on `resize-mini-windows' being
> > non-nil.  Not a good idea.  To see how bad it can be, set
> > `resize-mini-windows' to nil, then visit a file, then try to visit it
> > using `M-x find-file-literally'.  You see only this line in the echo
> > area, which is not even a question:
> >
> >   The file foo.el is already visited normally.
> 
> We should perhaps consider obsoleting `resize-mini-windows'.  Emacs has
> many prompts now that don't make sense in a single line.

Those prompts should bind resize-mini-windows non-nil.

I don't understand the rest of the bug report, but the specific part
about find-file-literally will be definitely fixed by that.

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Drew Adams]

> > We should perhaps consider obsoleting `resize-mini-windows'.  Emacs has
> > many prompts now that don't make sense in a single line.
> 
> Those prompts should bind resize-mini-windows non-nil.
> 
> I don't understand the rest of the bug report, 

What don't you understand about it?  (To quote a famous person.)

> but the specific part about find-file-literally will be
> definitely fixed by that.

I don't think so.  `resize-mini-windows' will do nothing for a
standalone minibuffer.  Again: "Don't show a multi-line message
for prompting `y-or-n-p' in the echo area and expect users to see it."

It is NOT a good idea to depend on `resize-mini-windows' showing
all of a multi-line message.

If the code _really_ needs to interact with the user using a
multi-line message, then `y-or-n-p' is the _wrong_ way to ask
the question.  If users need to read multiple lines then hitting
a single key to choose is probably not appropriate.

This should be rethought, IMO.  If the prompt cannot reasonably
be a single line then some other interaction should be used.
Do not just look for a way to force minibuffer-window resizing.

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 4 May 2016 08:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 18340@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > > We should perhaps consider obsoleting `resize-mini-windows'.  Emacs has
> > > many prompts now that don't make sense in a single line.
> > 
> > Those prompts should bind resize-mini-windows non-nil.
> > 
> > I don't understand the rest of the bug report, 
> 
> What don't you understand about it?

I understood nothing beyond the example with resize-mini-windows and a
normal frame which has a minibuffer.

> > but the specific part about find-file-literally will be
> > definitely fixed by that.
> 
> I don't think so.  `resize-mini-windows' will do nothing for a
> standalone minibuffer.

Please show a recipe, as I didn't understand the problem.  Repeating
what you said the first time doesn't help.

> Again: "Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p' in
> the echo area and expect users to see it."

Please let us judge what would be the best solution for problems.

> It is NOT a good idea to depend on `resize-mini-windows' showing
> all of a multi-line message.

You contradict yourself: above you said that the value of
resize-mini-windows doesn't necessarily help.

> If the code _really_ needs to interact with the user using a
> multi-line message, then `y-or-n-p' is the _wrong_ way to ask
> the question.  If users need to read multiple lines then hitting
> a single key to choose is probably not appropriate.

I don't think I agree.  I see no reason to treat single-line and
multi-line prompts differently, not without a good reason.  The fact
that there's more than one line doesn't cut it.

> This should be rethought, IMO.  If the prompt cannot reasonably
> be a single line then some other interaction should be used.
> Do not just look for a way to force minibuffer-window resizing.

Once again, please don't dictate solutions for problems.

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 18340 + moreinfo
thanks

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
> in the echo area and expect users to see it.
>
> The UI for `find-file-literally' depends on `resize-mini-windows' being
> non-nil.  Not a good idea.  To see how bad it can be, set
> `resize-mini-windows' to nil, then visit a file, then try to visit it
> using `M-x find-file-literally'.  You see only this line in the echo
> area, which is not even a question:
>
>   The file foo.el is already visited normally.
>
> Huh?  A user who sees that has no clue as to what is going on.

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Please show a recipe, as I didn't understand the problem.

I also don't understand the problem.  I tried doing the above steps with
(setq resize-mini-windows nil) and I don't see anything that is
different from when it is t.

Could we have a recipe to reproduce this issue?

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Juri Linkov]

>> Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
>> in the echo area and expect users to see it.
>...
>
> Could we have a recipe to reproduce this issue?

This is already fixed in Emacs 28 where this prompt is not multi-line
anymore (commit 0a8cd0116204354e95fbb4ebde64c58123502aa2 from bug#5423).

bug#18340: 24.4.50; Bad UI for `find-file-literally'

[Stefan Kangas]

unarchive 5423
forcemerge 5423 18340
thanks

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

>>> Summary: Don't show a multi-line message for prompting `y-or-n-p'
>>> in the echo area and expect users to see it.
>>...
>>
>> Could we have a recipe to reproduce this issue?
>
> This is already fixed in Emacs 28 where this prompt is not multi-line
> anymore (commit 0a8cd0116204354e95fbb4ebde64c58123502aa2 from bug#5423).

Right.  I'm merging the bug reports, so that this one is also closed.