From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#32047: 26.1; Misleading/confusing text about `C-k' in TUTORIAL Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:14:55 +0300 Message-ID: <83y3egee1s.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87o9fn2386.fsf@moondust.localdomain> <83h8l5g3ac.fsf@gnu.org> <87sh4p4ku8.fsf@moondust.localdomain> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1531404850 18643 195.159.176.226 (12 Jul 2018 14:14:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:14:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org To: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 12 16:14:06 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcM9-0004kH-Is for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:14:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60430 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcOG-00046b-CN for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:16:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44971) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcO7-00046N-0o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:16:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcO2-0007mJ-1q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:16:06 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:49319) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcO1-0007m3-Tr for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:16:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcO1-0002lF-LE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:16:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:16:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 32047 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 32047-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B32047.153140491310553 (code B ref 32047); Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:16:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 32047) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Jul 2018 14:15:13 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57216 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcNF-0002k8-0Q for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:53836) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcNB-0002ju-HC for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:10 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN1-0007DX-Ab for 32047@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:15:04 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:43514) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN1-0007DN-6F; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:14:59 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=1656 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1fdcN0-00008l-8R; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:14:58 -0400 In-reply-to: <87sh4p4ku8.fsf@moondust.localdomain> (nljlistbox2@gmail.com) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:148466 Archived-At: > From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > Cc: 32047@debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:46:07 -0400 > > At 19:12 +0300 on Wednesday 2018-07-11, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > >> From: nljlistbox2@gmail.com (N. Jackson) > >> Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 > >> > >> 414 >> Move the cursor to the beginning of a line which is not empty. > >> 415 Then type C-k to kill the text on that line. > >> 416 >> Type C-k a second time. You'll see that it kills the Newline > >> 417 which follows that line. > >> 418 > >> 419 Note that a single C-k kills the contents of the line, and a second > >> 420 C-k kills the line itself, and makes all the other lines move up. C-k > >> 421 treats a numeric argument specially: it kills that many lines AND > >> 422 their contents. This is not mere repetition. C-u 2 C-k kills two > >> 423 lines and their Newlines; typing C-k twice would not do that. > >> > >> The example(s) given in Lines 414 to 417 are correct. But the > >> sentence beginning on Line 419 is misleading. It is only true > >> when point is at the beginning of the line. > > > > But in this case, point _is_ at the beginning of the line, > > isn't it? > > No. Well, maybe! If the paragraph beginning at Line 419 is > talking about the preceding example, then yes, point is at the > beginning of the line and the first sentence is okay. It definitely does talk about the example before the text. That's how tutorial are written: they show an example, and then talk about that example. > My reading of the paragraph was that it was talking about C-k in > general, not specifically about the preceding example. I see no reason to assume that. > A reading borne out by the following sentences about numeric > arguments which do not feature in the example. That's another widely accepted methodology in tutorials: after explaining something simple, build on that to explain more complicated stuff. In this case, the _only_ complication is the argument. The fact that the text introduces the argument does not mean it is now talking about C-k in general -- nothing in tutorials is ever general, unless the text explicitly says so. > Perhaps this is all that would be needed to make this clear: > > In the preceding example note that a single C-k ... > > > So I wonder whether it is worth it to complicate the text just > > for accuracy's sake? > > No, I don't think it makes sense to add any more complication > here. This is the tutorial, not the documentation, after all. Indeed. > In fact, the discussion of C-k is more complicated, I think, > than anything else in the tutorial, and it might be an > improvement to drop the discussion of subtle difference in > behaviour of C-k with numeric arguments -- the actual behaviour > then is easy to understand when one uses it and it doesn't seem > that the tutorial is the place to belabour this point. I actually think that the behavior of C-k with an argument is an important part of teaching that arguments in Emacs are not always just repetition.