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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <ghe@sdf.org>
Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Confused by y-or-n-p
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2021 16:50:05 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <83wnwra15u.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.22.394.2101042155180453.32026@sdf.lonestar.org> (emacs-devel@gnu.org)

> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 2021 22:18:04 +0000
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Gregory Heytings via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
>     I don't think that was Richard's point: we always go to great lengths to make it possible to get back the old behavior (even for changes where the impact is quite minor).
> 
>     E.g. with respect to `y-or-n-p`, I think we already all agree that there should be a way to recover the previous "modal" behavior. We just need someone to implement it (ideally while still preserving the improvement of the new minibuffer-based code).
> 
> No always, alas.

Yes, not always.  It isn't feasible nor wise to do that "always", so
please don't insist on such unrealistic goals.  But in the vast
majority of cases, we do go to great lengths (some say too great) to
provide an option to get the old behavior back.  This list and the bug
list are replete with examples of that.

> With respect to y-or-n-p, there is now indeed an agreement that there should be a way to recover the old behavior. But IIUC, Richard's point is that this possibility should have been present since the beginning, when the new behavior was introduced, without waiting for objections.

It is impossible to promise that no one will ever make good-faith
mistakes like this.  The important point is to have procedures in
place to detect such mistakes and fix them, without imposing too much
overhead on the development.

> What happened is (1) behavior A is removed and replaced by behavior B, (2) enough people object this change, (2) behavior B is implemented again.
> 
> What could have happened instead is (1) behavior B is implemented, next to behavior A, with a way to choose between them, (2) at some point, possibly immediately, the default behavior is changed from A to B, (3) if after some time it becomes clear that behavior A is not used anymore, it is deprecated, and later again removed.

The changes in the process proposed for making such cases rarer would
cause a significant slowdown of the Emacs development, so my
conclusion is that those proposals are unjustified given the small
number of incidents that would presumably call for those changes.

> Having both behaviors available at the same time is also, I believe, a necessary condition for a fruitful comparison and discussion. Otherwise the discussion is about the merits of a removed behavior vs. the new behavior instead of about the merits of a behavior A vs. a behavior B.

It is very easy to compare without having both behaviors in the same
binary: just keep old binaries around.  That's what I do, and it
allows me to quickly see what was past behavior, and even perform a
quick "bisection" when some new problem is reported.  Highly
recommended.



  reply	other threads:[~2021-01-05 14:50 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 210+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-12-23 15:24 Confused by y-or-n-p Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-23 16:45 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-12-23 17:04   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-23 17:35   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-23 18:11     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-12-23 18:44       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-25  4:29         ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-23 19:48 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-12-23 19:53 ` Karl Fogel
2020-12-23 20:27   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-24 18:26     ` Karl Fogel
2020-12-24  5:56   ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-24  5:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-24  6:06   ` David Masterson
2020-12-24 16:49   ` João Távora
2020-12-24 15:38 ` martin rudalics
2020-12-24 20:47   ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-25  7:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-25  9:07       ` martin rudalics
2020-12-25 11:32         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-25 13:20           ` martin rudalics
2020-12-26 10:24             ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-26 11:01               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-26 13:41               ` martin rudalics
2020-12-27 16:25                 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-27 17:16                   ` martin rudalics
2020-12-28  8:48                     ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-27 18:06                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-28  8:52                     ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-28  9:36                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-28 17:06                         ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-28 17:28                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-30  9:54                             ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-02  5:25                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02 13:36                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02  5:25                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02  5:25                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-02  7:06                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-02  7:22                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-02 17:06                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-01-02 17:14                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-03  6:06                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03 15:16                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04  5:16                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04  6:10                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04  7:54                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-01-04  9:21                                                 ` martin rudalics
2021-01-04  9:24                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-04  9:55                                                     ` martin rudalics
2021-01-04 11:28                                                       ` Andrea Corallo via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 14:58                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-01-04 15:09                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 15:17                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-04 16:10                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-05  8:16                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-05 15:03                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  5:01                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:19                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 17:17                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04 17:43                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 18:02                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04 18:15                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-05  8:32                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-06  5:02                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:20                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 16:44                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06 17:05                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 17:13                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04 17:20                                                     ` martin rudalics
2021-01-04 17:43                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-04 18:52                                                         ` martin rudalics
2021-01-05  8:33                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-04 18:04                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06  5:03                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:23                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07  7:53                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06  5:01                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 17:53                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-05  6:33                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-05 14:57                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-05  6:35                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 10:28                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 17:22                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04 17:28                                                   ` martin rudalics
2021-01-06  5:03                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 22:18                                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-05 14:50                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2021-01-06  0:14                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06  3:34                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  9:41                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06 15:33                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 15:46                                                               ` Tassilo Horn
2021-01-06 16:08                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 16:36                                                                   ` Tassilo Horn
2021-01-06 16:58                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 23:57                                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-07  9:41                                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-01-08  6:17                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07  7:41                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:23                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-13 15:57                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06  5:13                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-05  6:29                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04  8:52                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-01-05  6:33                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-05 14:44                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-07  7:33                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:18                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07 15:09                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-13 15:57                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-13 16:16                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-15  5:28                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-15  7:13                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-17  6:03                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 15:10                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-05 14:58                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 14:59                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  5:01                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:16                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 21:18                                                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-01-07  3:32                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 15:28                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06  5:01                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:17                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04  5:17                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04  6:12                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-04 15:01                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  5:01                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  5:01                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06 15:16                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07  7:53                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:32                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 10:28                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 11:02                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-04 11:35                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 12:34                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-04 13:10                                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-04 17:21                                                   ` martin rudalics
2021-01-05 10:48                                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-05 11:10                                                       ` tomas
2021-01-05 15:34                                                       ` martin rudalics
2021-01-04 15:19                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-04 22:17                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-05 11:44                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-01-05 14:48                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-05 18:18                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-05  6:44                                             ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03  6:01                                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03  6:01                                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-04 18:03                                       ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-06  5:03                                         ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-14  8:50                                           ` Juri Linkov
2021-01-15  5:41                                             ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03  6:03                                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-03 15:13                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-05  6:25                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-05 14:54                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06  0:14                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06  0:44                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-06  9:41                                               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-06 11:06                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-01-06 15:35                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 15:46                                                   ` Drew Adams
2021-01-06 23:57                                                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-07  9:46                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-01-07 10:03                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-07 10:29                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-01-09  6:34                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-09  8:32                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-09 14:06                                                           ` Following etc/NEWS on the development branch (was: Confused by y-or-n-p) Kévin Le Gouguec
2021-01-09 14:24                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-09 16:05                                                               ` Following etc/NEWS on the development branch Kévin Le Gouguec
2021-01-09  9:34                                                         ` Confused by y-or-n-p Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-10  6:07                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:09                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07 23:34                                                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-08  2:10                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-01-09  9:34                                                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-08  7:16                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-09  6:44                                                           ` Stealing minibuffers [Was: Confused by y-or-n-p] Richard Stallman
2021-01-09  9:34                                                             ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2021-01-09 10:04                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-06 15:32                                                 ` Confused by y-or-n-p Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07  7:52                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-07 14:27                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-01-07  7:52                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-01-06  3:35                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-28  5:26                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-28  5:51                     ` Drew Adams
2020-12-28  8:59                     ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-26 10:24           ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-26 10:51             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-27  5:38               ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-25  9:23       ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-25 11:46         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-25  8:42     ` martin rudalics
2020-12-25 11:31       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-25 13:20         ` martin rudalics
2020-12-26 10:24     ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-26 10:41       ` Sv: " arthur miller
2020-12-27  5:38         ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-26 10:49       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-12-26 13:45       ` martin rudalics
2020-12-27  5:46         ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-26 18:30       ` Drew Adams
2020-12-25  4:40   ` Richard Stallman
2020-12-25  8:42     ` martin rudalics
2020-12-28 17:09   ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-29  8:53     ` martin rudalics

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