From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#15478: cc-mode does not obey electric-indent-mode Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:49:51 +0300 Message-ID: <83vc1845ps.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20131002200737.GA3895@acm.acm> <524CDA92.1030107@dancol.org> <20131003094543.GA3211@acm.acm> <83zjqn5cri.fsf@gnu.org> <20131007093859.GA3859@acm.acm> <83hact5aoe.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1381215378 28651 80.91.229.3 (8 Oct 2013 06:56:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2013 06:56:18 +0000 (UTC) Cc: gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org, acm@muc.de To: Josh Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 08 08:56:21 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRDP-0005gW-JE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 08:56:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34911 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRDP-00079k-7M for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:56:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51343) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRDI-00079e-HD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:56:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRDD-0005Kv-QO for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:56:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:53716) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRD8-0005Bs-D0; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:56:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRD7-0002uS-U2; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:56:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, bug-cc-mode@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2013 06:56:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 15478 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs,cc-mode X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B.138121532111136 (code B ref -1); Tue, 08 Oct 2013 06:56:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Oct 2013 06:55:21 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33776 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRCS-0002tV-9d for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:49467) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRCP-0002tM-Ac for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:18 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRCK-000559-8m for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:16 -0400 Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:37241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRCK-000555-5n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51189) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRCF-00074K-B7 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRC8-0004o9-Lk for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:07 -0400 Original-Received: from four.schnuerpel.eu ([2a01:4f8:120:9382::145]:36679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VTRC8-0004nr-FS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 02:55:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il (mtaout22.012.net.il [80.179.55.172]) by moderators.schnuerpel.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4E97C7 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2013 08:54:59 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MUC00D0080H9600@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:49:54 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MUC00C3Z8B5SQC0@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Tue, 08 Oct 2013 09:49:53 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:79022 Archived-At: > From: Josh > Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2013 14:17:23 -0700 > Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Monnier , > gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org > > > > > Do you hear many complaints about other undocumented variables? > > > > > > Here, the variable need only be accessed through the function below. The > > > emphasis on this variable is only in discussions like this one, not in > > > user facilities. > > > > Right. And in any case, I meant complaints about the behavior, not > > about the variables/functions that control it. > > I know what you meant. The reason I pointed out the fact that that the > variable that supposedly "solved" this is undocumented, that newbies will > not recognize "electric" as pertinent, and all the rest of it is to show > that disabling this behavior is far too arcane and burdensome for newbies. I know what you wanted to point out. What I want to point out is that people complain about inconvenient behavior even if (and mostly _because_) they cannot find how to disable it. Existence of obscure variables, or lack thereof, is never a reason _not_ to complain. > As Daniel said upthread, "Users don't read READMEs --- they download a > program, try it out, and in 15 minutes or so, decide whether they want to > invest time into it." I believe that most such users who dislike this > behavior and start down the path I described will fail and be far less > likely to invest further time in Emacs and move on to something else. > Perhaps such users are a small minority; I don't know. But I attribute the > fact that you see few complaints about this behavior to selection bias, > with some who dislike the behavior not complaining because they gave up and > moved on to another editor while still others who dislike it do not > complain because we managed to disable it ourselves. This hypothesis is not useful, because it can "justify" any opinion, without being burdened with any evidence whatsoever. The fact is that users do complain about all sorts of Emacs behavior that is inconvenient for them. So, as a matter of fact, enough users do survive the 15-minute shock to continue using Emacs. If most of those who do don't see the current electrical behavior as a nuisance worth complaining about, that is good enough for me.