From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: c-ts-mode Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2023 09:19:58 +0300 Message-ID: <83v8cjvpf5.fsf@gnu.org> References: <5F73CB5D-DB00-439F-AD7C-7E209EC83A35@gmail.com> <83jzt2z5mk.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1hhykni.fsf@gnu.org> <877cp1lvih.fsf@gmail.com> <83v8clyhqi.fsf@gnu.org> <83tts5ygv2.fsf@gnu.org> <83msxxxkc0.fsf@gnu.org> <871qf9ktxd.fsf@gmail.com> <838r9gykia.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36070"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, theo@thornhill.no, casouri@gmail.com, spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Petteri Hintsanen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 09 08:20:57 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qerKy-0009B2-1v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 Sep 2023 08:20:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qerKD-0003JI-J4; Sat, 09 Sep 2023 02:20:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qerKB-0003IU-Db for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Sep 2023 02:20:07 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qerK9-0005at-Qz; Sat, 09 Sep 2023 02:20:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=cN3bECkvvjgwTl4ykXT+y3+g1fpq5Ho3//jtVtTlRoo=; b=g3svH/pGHi7n9i+nbwlV YvoQg/bZ6oD9dNB29G5Q9KsRFzCXPEH9ay+petm5WEYjNdl4I3NXeyQab98H2cf0T1/xDQ9ZgspLX zPQLS+4Nh14hpJBK9AM/Sye3VYfjsXrSXffIDHMEuJSRKwY6R1aZSPfNm71vqVM3yRNkXml+OqYpl IPmyGGloWVKXFjPhN6XWEdMmyueJcGsFqJzA1lCzVnnjV/obNEL2aIL18P8e2xwkenuvO6Hd0tE71 qQqBQTdEjGR8MUWIo9afKk/JrwmNPZtqYIVQB1qjUjssIhAjgkDurSq5Lgo8QIl28F48RmMDonk6b WinkhHZAnCllVQ==; In-Reply-To: (message from Petteri Hintsanen on Fri, 08 Sep 2023 22:58:22 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:310385 Archived-At: > From: Petteri Hintsanen > Cc: Eli Zaretskii , theo@thornhill.no, casouri@gmail.com, > spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2023 22:58:22 +0300 > > João Távora writes: > > > Maybe in the past CC Mode's styles were very useful, but I don't > > think they attract the same interest today because there are these > > external tools. For the same reason, I don't predict ts > > indentation styles to become widely used. > > I have to disagree with this. Built-in styles are useful, and for me > they have been, in all major modes I've used (not just CC mode), close > enough for almost all use cases over the years. I use external tools > like clang-format only to satisfy some CI systems that (IMO stupidly) > enforce certain formatting. > > In general I'd find it a bit disconcerting if the tendency is to move > towards external stuff for basics like syntax highlighting and code > formatting. There's no such "move", not in Emacs anyway. We will continue supporting our built-in rules for the observable future. This discussion is about _allowing_ users who do want it to have Emacs obey indentation rules specified on external files of de-facto standard structure and format. When this is implemented, it should be an optional feature that users activate only if they want/need it. > I personally don't like the idea of installing a couple of > libraries plus their emacs glue libs, source code formatters along with > their dependencies, and huge language servers [*], to get first class > "editing experience" -- Emacs is supposedly a text editor, after all. > Especially given that I've got to install and use Emacs on resource > limited machines and ones where I do not have admin rights, so I cannot > install those externals just like that. You are assuming something about the implementation that still doesn't exist. If you mean LSP, then I agree that it should ideally not be the prerequisite to having this feature, and I think at least for most of that functionality we could simply convert the external rules into our internal variables and data structures used by indentation functions. > It is great that Emacs is able to leverage the power of third party libs > and tools, but I think this should not come at the expense of built in > functionality. Of course the rant above was a rhetoric exaggeration, > but still it is perhaps something to keep in mind when designing for the > future. We always keep that in mind.