From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 09:49:22 +0300 Message-ID: <83v8atho99.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87il8betof.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83fs3dgxv8.fsf@gnu.org> <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> <83jzraki0g.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29375"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 26 08:50:13 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuC5-0007Oe-LA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 08:50:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuBL-0005Hr-6x; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:49:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuBJ-0005H9-Sf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:49:25 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvuBI-0000LF-AC; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 02:49:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=Q8POCoUTVPHTrzmfibrR5Wn0Q31Stw4OS5T/nEGLDuI=; b=a0FxoDKjFuqZ xo/PLg+POJvUjZn513q7zPZtoqXke6r5jjZX/dOAIhl6bVggJFVg/xazEWI58zdbKHgtQkb5UJ7Sw 5GbRs8hExVH4kFzIkoustulQma7BbLvhv9J3ERaJI9O5sTChrdDyvq5wxOT/6w5R0Nj9Mae8OTlXE /0ypODpnHQVXhoSR8566Y2VPbXWIy2rVWMirp0FJ+MlJQm1FUVTLSqOGRhVmVQdVX6YJYmur05Iw3 AkqQrqfn3wKgtqhqE+nygxKgKNdNoohHsWlW74YH+lgAkSnO1LKVzzryM2FdoJGbcdKSEOahiwVLK rXgEXol/xHoLkCNU3i01Rw==; In-Reply-To: (message from Richard Stallman on Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:32 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311885 Archived-At: > From: Richard Stallman > Cc: acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2023 22:27:32 -0400 > > What's wrong with using cl-lib in many files, for example abbrev.el ad > debug.el, is that each one is a step towards making Emacs depend > pervasively on cl-lib. I don't understand how cl-lib here is different from other packages that are used pervasively in Emacs. We have quite a few of them that aren't preloaded. > With each step in that direction, it becomes gradually harder and > harder to work on Emacs at all without being familiar with the CL functions. > That general dependence is the problem I want to prevent. This ship has sailed long ago. cl-lib is used in many packages, both those bundled with Emacs and those unbundled. It is considered a convenience library by many Lisp programmers who contribute to Emacs. In this situation, rejecting code that uses cl-lib is counter-productive and detrimental to attracting new contributors.