From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs. Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:31:23 +0300 Message-ID: <83twtzhi9g.fsf@gnu.org> References: <557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu> <5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu> <87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org> <5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru> <87r3p9fxm2.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k2v0fiji.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20150619090225.GA2743@acm.fritz.box> <87fv5kfrfa.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1434987126 19682 80.91.229.3 (22 Jun 2015 15:32:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:32:06 +0000 (UTC) Cc: acm@muc.de, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 22 17:31:57 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Z73hU-0001Qt-BF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:31:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40757 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z73hT-0001zi-PG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:31:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41104) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z73hK-0001yS-V8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:31:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z73hE-0003WY-S4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:31:46 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout28.012.net.il ([80.179.55.184]:41855) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Z73hE-0003WF-E4; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:31:40 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout28.012.net.il by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NQC00100R22CF00@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:31:18 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout28.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NQC0012GR45JY00@mtaout28.012.net.il>; Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:31:18 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87fv5kfrfa.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 80.179.55.184 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:187384 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 10:44:09 +0900 > Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org >=20 > I don't respect the ASCII-capped lobby. They constitute a tiny > minority of humanity which has been getting in the way of bringing > sane computing to 7 billion people for 5 decades now. I find the > argument that "*I* am ASCII-capped, so *we* shouldn't simplify and > disambiguate by using Unicode" especially distressing in the contex= t > of Emacs. With all due respect, Stephen, you are bending the argument too much. Truth is, the Unicode adoption in mainline software we are involved w= ith every day is very slow. For example, there still are no good solutio= ns for bidi-aware text terminals, which means, inter alia, that gettext-styl= e translations to R2L languages for console programs are still in troub= le, 15 years after the UBA was codified. At least 400 million people worldw= ide need that, but we are still not there. The net result of this extremely slow progress is that many theoretic= al niceties are exceedingly hard to have in practice, and you cannot rel= y on them being available to J.R. Hacker next door. > That's nonsense. Emacs users learn *hundreds* of keychords. We also use programs other than Emacs, and some of us (gasp!) use the= m from the shell prompt at least sometimes. So the ability to type these characters conveniently is important, certainly not something to disr= egard so easily as you do. > Japanese (and Chinese) mostly just use the layout of whatever keybo= ard > is in front of them, except that it's convenient to have labelled k= eys > for mode-switch commands for word processing users. So perhaps the issues being discussed are non-issues for Japanese and Chinese (and users of other complex writing systems). But they are s= till issues for the rest of the world, there's no need to deny or dismiss = that. > > Richard meant what he wrote here. > Of course he did. The question is whether he has any experience wi= th > using input methods other than self-insert-command. I will bet "no= ", I do use input methods. It's still a (minor) nuisance compared to pr= essing a single key. So if my keyboard had keys for =E2=80=98..=E2=80=99 an= d the likes, it would be better. As things stand, I will need to use tricks, especially ou= t of Emacs, to type them. It's less convenient. > and that his reaction is pre-judgment without enough relevant > experience. "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you." Just because Some People=E2=84=A2 might have prejudice against these = quotes, it doesn't mean their introduction won't make our lives less convenient. > > Any benefits there may be are not _practical_ ones. The curly > > quotes are a pain to type. >=20 > That's a fixable bug, but not in the use of curly quotes themselves= , > but rather in the Emacs input system. Alas, the world of software is not limited to Emacs. > the only actual result that ever happens is that implementation is = always > delayed, and often proponents give up entirely for a while. Which = means > nothing is learned. Experiments, on the other hand, do produce cha= nges > in position. For some of us, Emacs is a first-class tool for everyday's work. Som= e of us cannot easily afford conducting "experiments" with tools of suc= h importance, because we have to do something other than gathering experience by the end of the day. Please don't dismiss our chagrin s= o easily, just because you might have more free time on your hands to conduct experiments. While reverting a bunch of commits (whose numbe= r is growing by the hour, btw) might be relatively easy, those commits affect everyone who is using Emacs, as reverting them, locally is hardly a practical option.