From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:38:17 +0300 Message-ID: <83ttxa6ghi.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com> <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org> <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net> <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org> <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com> <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org> <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org> <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev> <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org> <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev> <83r0sh8i1q.fsf@gnu.org> <35638c9d-e13f-fad8-5f95-ea03d65d4aa2@gmail.com> <87a5z3izst.fsf@web.de> <83v8hr7qk9.fsf@gnu.org> <83pm7z7nkc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="473"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 20 11:39:01 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQkn-000APx-OO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 11:39:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQjy-0007Nh-Ic; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:38:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQjv-00071R-VP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:38:08 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQjv-0004as-Be; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:38:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=S8NrDrY/EqPC2b2qWKYtDjHoyx4MG+Rhmk73GQc3hsc=; b=KJNz1Gds65wUdT3tENVB bM3yyJt0Nw1mvIbPtemefTHGAcWI3MXWbDbVAWd2YDYJIkr/vrj1laPA6LE81Dbn0OEpGspwHdcNu jkiHOQg1WVKGJ2MKAZ/zQcCZlWyGMpP4McGpbzWUNKMwX2L3p122jESEKmvy2dMM7V+8myaJaa83I hvHkNs1Kgn+I+s/To/eFx49TTRyiXew2fNZ2ZWcehh80nalK2Lkyh0pycx35fTKXU/D/JQg3HZeO2 jxg+nRR0DviWt6sp4aABDX8SU3GDWO7Flz1NbiPzPr1pUedkXsKqDRdOMAPQiokG8zy7ZMkEMD6f8 lyBt27rB6aDLjw==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ppQjt-0003xq-Oi; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:38:06 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Wed, 19 Apr 2023 20:15:20 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305492 Archived-At: > From: João Távora > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 20:15:20 +0100 > Cc: arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com, dmitry@gutov.dev, > emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:07 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > It has similar problems: it will automatically update packages > > mentioned in package--safely-upgradeable-builtins, which might not be > > what users want for built-in packages. > > It is what they want, by definition, this is why I named it > "safely-upgradeable-builtins". These are the users: > > Specifically, users of Emacs 28 and older, who had Eglot installed, > and expect Eglot to be automatically updated upon Emacs startup > whenever a new Eglot version is available, will now have their > expectations broken after they upgrade to Emacs 29, because Eglot is > now a built-in package, and package.el won't by default upgrade a > built-in package. > > Recognize this writing? It is yours! Yes. Of course, you conveniently omitted the next paragraph I wrote, which described a different group of users, whose expectations would be broken by the changes you proposed. That was also "my writing". > > You assume that everyone will > > want Eglot and use-package automatically updated, but this assumption > > has no real basis. > > First, of course it has real statistical basis! Didn't I send you > links to tens and tens of issues were users reported their configurations > and one can actually see what users are doing to install Eglot? Since when "tens" and "everyone" are the same thing? > Secondly, it has the theoretical basis of what you wrote yourself > barely 1 hour ago! It shows you understand the problem that is > new in Emacs 29. Of course, I understand the problem. But understanding the problem doesn't mean agreement with the solutions you propose, or any other solution, for that matter. An acceptable solution should solve the problem without causing other problems, and in this case it also must solve the problem in a safe enough manner to be eligible for Emacs 29.1. > Using your language, we want to not "break those user's expectations". > if we can. And we can, if you want to. You want to, right? You want to > break as few user's expectations as possible, ideally 0. > > And the code does exactly that! It avoids bothering that set of > users while also avoiding bothering the other set of users that > you mentioned. > > And, for good measure, the set of users who had Eglot installed > and expect Eglot NOT to be updated when package-install is found > is the empty set. Surely this is evident. > > So there's no "dilemma". There is rather some kind of spectacular > misunderstanding here. There has to be, because I'm drawing these > conclusions from nothing more than elementary facts from set theory It is clear that you like the solution you proposed, and see no problems with it. But I disagree, and at this point I have explained my disagreement enough times. If you still think I'm wrong, please, just let's leave this disagreement as it is. Repeating the same arguments over and over again just wastes bandwidth and our time. > > Plus, it adds to the maintenance burden of maintaining this > > (internal? not a defcustom??) variable for good. > > We can make it a defcustom if you want. That's exactly > Jim's idea. I was just trying to make the simplest thing > possible. This is just for Emacs 29. You asked for little > code and this is much less code (less cyclomatic complexity, > etc) than what you eventually accepted. So I was just trying to > cover that front too. I said I'm okay with a defcustom if its default value is nil. Of course, we already added a defcustom to allow built-in packages to be updated, so I'm not sure another one is needed.