From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:39:12 +0300 Message-ID: <83sk3kg3fj.fsf@gnu.org> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <87wrt0e81n.fsf@telefonica.net> <62E9699C07054418AB66F9C5FCB54E5C@us.oracle.com> <87sk3oe3la.fsf@telefonica.net> <1154D96E7D2F401D849266F359E44BB9@us.oracle.com> <87ocecdzou.fsf@telefonica.net> <2256C17F740A425884AD551DE7758056@us.oracle.com> <87fwzodqqm.fsf@telefonica.net> <5138CDF30B2D4B778F948015614DA7BC@us.oracle.com> <87iq4ijtdy.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <838w5dgln1.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3updqup.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <87bpa8bx9p.fsf@telefonica.net> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279208564 15473 80.91.229.12 (15 Jul 2010 15:42:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 15:42:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jul 15 17:42:43 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZQa9-0004CQ-Q4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:42:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53974 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZQa9-00064Z-Mn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:42:41 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=50272 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OZQZa-0005Va-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:42:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZQYy-0007dG-OS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:41:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout22.012.net.il ([80.179.55.172]:58555) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OZQYy-0007cT-Hj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:41:28 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout22.012.net.il by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5L00D00VHZ4J00@a-mtaout22.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:41:09 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout22.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5L00AYRVKKEI90@a-mtaout22.012.net.il>; Thu, 15 Jul 2010 18:41:09 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87bpa8bx9p.fsf@telefonica.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127370 Archived-At: > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2010 17:05:54 +0200 >=20 > Emacs' idiosyncratic keybindings are, without doubt, the higher ent= ry > barrier nowadays. Apart of CUA, what other keybindings out there are accepted widely enough to make them not idiosyncratic? Let me give you an example. The keybinding I tend to use most in Emacs is M-/. Do we have anything similar in other applications? More generally, what to do with hundreds if not thousands of keybindings in Emacs for which there's simply no equivalent functionality elsewhere? Those keybindings will always be ``idiosyncratic'', because they cannot be learned anywhere. CUA is what? 15 keybindings? And what if the equivalent functionality has an entirely different look-and-feel? A case in point is completion: would you say that we should redesign the completion UI to be more like the Windows Explorer's one, whereby typing a character drops down a mouse- clickable list of possible completions? How do you sell this to Emacs users who have the current completion keys wired into their fingers and brains? =46rom personal experience, it is not a disaster to use two different sets of keybindings. Yes, sometimes you will err and curse. But it won't let you abandon a tool that is otherwise useful. Making Emacs extremely useful is therefore the single most important way of making it more popular among those who it targets.