From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#43308: 28.0.50; Improvements to Edit->Search menu Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 18:51:12 +0300 Message-ID: <83sgbpiqa7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87zh5xiuk4.fsf@localhost> <831rj9k79b.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10558"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 43308@debbugs.gnu.org, yantar92@gmail.com To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 10 17:52:26 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOs5-0002cj-NZ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:52:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54512 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOs4-0003XI-Pu for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:52:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47324) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOri-0003C2-Dz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:52:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:57666) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOri-0003zY-42 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:52:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOri-00077J-1O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:52:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 43308 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 43308-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B43308.159975307527301 (code B ref 43308); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 15:52:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 43308) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Sep 2020 15:51:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40979 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOqx-00076H-DA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:51:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOqw-000765-5g for 43308@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:51:14 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33030) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOqq-0003ei-Ln; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:51:08 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4930 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1kGOqp-0000sN-KF; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 11:51:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Stefan Kangas on Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:38:04 -0700) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:187742 Archived-At: > From: Stefan Kangas > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 08:38:04 -0700 > Cc: 43308@debbugs.gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > I disagree. Many applications have only the non-incremental search > > commands, so removing them will leave the user who are used to those > > with the incremental variant, which might be confusing for people who > > have no experience with comparable commands. > > I think this is less of a concern these days. In what way is this less of a concern? > The applications you talk about also have search dialog boxes, which > make the non-incremental search actually useful. That's true in some cases, but not in all of them. And the dialog is not really relevant here: the issue I raise is with the concept of incremental searching being unfamiliar. > Firefox also has incremental search by default, which many (most?) of > our users will already be familiar with. Some applications added incremental search, but many don't have it, and probably never will. Simple editors are in that class. > > If you are suggesting a "repeat last search" menu item, it could be a > > useful idea. But removing those items because we don't have a simple > > repeat item is a step in the wrong direction, IMO. > > This is a separate discussion, I think, but on graphical displays I > would ideally like to see a user interface like the one in C-f Firefox. > It shows clickable buttons for next/previous match, toggles for "Match > Case", "Whole Words" and how many matches there are. Improving the (non-existing) search dialog is a separate discussion. If you want to work on such a dialog, please do. but that is not what we are talking here. The proposal on the table is to remove non-incremental search commands from the Search menu. let's stay focused on that issue, okay? > > Feel free to suggest a better name for the item and/or a better help > > string. > > We could perhaps move it to a menu related to tags functionality? Just > an idea. No, I think this is fundamentally a search command. TAGS is just an aid. > >> 1. Menu items do not show the key binding (is in Incremental search > >> menu). I think that showing bindings is generally a great idea for > >> discoverability > > > > If there's no key binding shown in the menu, it means the command > > invoked by the menu item doesn't have a key. When there's a key > > binding, the machinery that displays the menu adds them automatically. > > Right. The problem here is that these commands are specifically > designed to be run from the menu. Is there any way to work around that? What kind of workaround do you have in mind? > >> 2. There is currently no way to understand what some unfamiliar menus do > >> except blindly trying. > > > > See above: "C-h k" is the way to understand that. > > Maybe this should be clarified more in the doc string of C-h k. I never > realized you can use "C-h k" to find out more about menu options, but I > suppose it makes sense now that you mention it. There's something new to learn about Emacs every day ;-) > Perhaps we could add a special command under the "Help" menu that says > "Help for menu" that when clicked runs C-h k with a special message in > the mini-buffer "Click the menu command you want help for"? I don't mind, if this will really help this to be more discoverable. (Of course Xah Lee thinks that our Help menu is too large as it is...)