* Source code, git and cvs @ 2023-07-20 12:01 uzibalqa 2023-07-20 13:38 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 12:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor What is the difference between git clone https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git and git clone -b master git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git And what is this exactly cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org: /sources/emacs co emacs ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 12:01 Source code, git and cvs uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 13:38 ` Po Lu 2023-07-20 13:58 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2023-07-20 13:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes: > What is the difference between > > git clone https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git > > and > > git clone -b master git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git The first command checks out the master branch of the Emacs repository over the HTTP protocol, while the other does so over the Git protocol. git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git means exactly the same as git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git; it is simply a more concise version of the other repository path. The difference between the two paths is of no relevance to prospective Emacs developers. All of this is spelt out clearly in CONTRIBUTE and countless other documents, such as the manual pages for `git clone'. > And what is this exactly > > cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org: > /sources/emacs co emacs This is an obsolete method of obtaining a checkout of the in-development Emacs source code. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 13:38 ` Po Lu @ 2023-07-20 13:58 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 14:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 1:38 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > > > What is the difference between > > > > git clone https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git > > > > and > > > > git clone -b master git://git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git > > > The first command checks out the master branch of the Emacs repository > over the HTTP protocol, while the other does so over the Git protocol. > > git.sv.gnu.org/emacs.git means exactly the same as > git.savannah.gnu.org/git/emacs.git; it is simply a more concise version > of the other repository path. > > The difference between the two paths is of no relevance to prospective > Emacs developers. All of this is spelt out clearly in CONTRIBUTE and > countless other documents, such as the manual pages for `git clone'. > > > And what is this exactly > > > > cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org: > > /sources/emacs co emacs > > > This is an obsolete method of obtaining a checkout of the in-development > Emacs source code. I wonder why you have INSTALL and INSTALL.REPO Because if one gets the emacs source, wouldn't they want to build using instructions from INSTALL.REPO rather than from INSTALL ? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 13:58 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 14:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 15:09 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 14:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:58:25 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> > > I wonder why you have INSTALL and INSTALL.REPO > > Because if one gets the emacs source, wouldn't they want to build using instructions > from INSTALL.REPO rather than from INSTALL ? INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for building a clone of the repository. They are different because some files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are generated during the build from the repository). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 14:23 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 15:09 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 15:34 ` Robert Pluim 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 2:23 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:58:25 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor > > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > I wonder why you have INSTALL and INSTALL.REPO > > > > Because if one gets the emacs source, wouldn't they want to build using instructions > > from INSTALL.REPO rather than from INSTALL ? > > > INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for > building a clone of the repository. They are different because some > files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are > generated during the build from the repository). Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only describes INSTALL. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 15:09 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 15:34 ` Robert Pluim 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Robert Pluim @ 2023-07-20 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, help-gnu-emacs >>>>> On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:09:44 +0000, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> said: uzibalqa> ------- Original Message ------- uzibalqa> On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 2:23 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: >> > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 13:58:25 +0000 >> > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me >> > Cc: uzibalqa via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor >> > help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org >> > >> > I wonder why you have INSTALL and INSTALL.REPO >> > >> > Because if one gets the emacs source, wouldn't they want to build using instructions >> > from INSTALL.REPO rather than from INSTALL ? >> >> >> INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for >> building a clone of the repository. They are different because some >> files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are >> generated during the build from the repository). uzibalqa> Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only uzibalqa> describes INSTALL. If you can read README, you can read INSTALL, which says, on line 11: For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. Robert -- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 15:09 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 15:34 ` Robert Pluim @ 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 15:47 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 16:05 ` uzibalqa 1 sibling, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 15:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:09:44 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for > > building a clone of the repository. They are different because some > > files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are > > generated during the build from the repository). > > Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only > describes INSTALL. INSTALL itself already includes that information: For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 15:47 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 16:05 ` uzibalqa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 15:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 3:36 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:09:44 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for > > > building a clone of the repository. They are different because some > > > files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are > > > generated during the build from the repository). > > > > Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only > > describes INSTALL. > > > INSTALL itself already includes that information: > > For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an > Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. I do not like the idea that information is stored deeper and deeper in hierarchy. They are two separate things and should be mentioned in the README. Not having to read about where to find information about installing from the repo using the file intended to show how to install from the tarball. Do not make it difficult for users to get to the basic information they need. README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about installing from the tarball. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 15:47 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 17:33 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 16:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:47:32 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 3:36 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > > > > Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only > > > describes INSTALL. > > > > > > INSTALL itself already includes that information: > > > > For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an > > Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. > > I do not like the idea that information is stored deeper and deeper > in hierarchy. They are two separate things and should be mentioned > in the README. Not having to read about where to find information > about installing from the repo using the file intended to show how > to install from the tarball. > > Do not make it difficult for users to get to the basic information > they need. I think it makes it easier, because INSTALL is a definitely a file people who want to install will read, whereas README is a more general-purpose file which doesn't necessarily need to say anything about installation. > README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about > installing from the tarball. We clearly disagree. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 17:33 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 18:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 4:35 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:47:32 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 3:36 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote: > > > > > > Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only > > > > describes INSTALL. > > > > > > INSTALL itself already includes that information: > > > > > > For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an > > > Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. > > > > I do not like the idea that information is stored deeper and deeper > > in hierarchy. They are two separate things and should be mentioned > > in the README. Not having to read about where to find information > > about installing from the repo using the file intended to show how > > to install from the tarball. > > > > Do not make it difficult for users to get to the basic information > > they need. > > > I think it makes it easier, because INSTALL is a definitely a file > people who want to install will read, whereas README is a more > general-purpose file which doesn't necessarily need to say anything > about installation. > > > README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about > > installing from the tarball. > > > We clearly disagree. Of course, hide it and make things more difficult for new users. And then expect them to figure out things by themselves. And when they ask questions, never be straightforward and give them the code they need to use. It is their job to go through the ever increasing obfuscation of information embedded within deeper and deeper levels of cyclomatic complexity. Classic example of development malpractice. smart approach. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 17:33 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 18:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 19:12 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:33:41 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about > > > installing from the tarball. > > > > > > We clearly disagree. > > Of course, hide it and make things more difficult for new users. And then > expect them to figure out things by themselves. And when they ask questions, > never be straightforward and give them the code they need to use. It is their > job to go through the ever increasing obfuscation of information embedded within > deeper and deeper levels of cyclomatic complexity. Classic example of development > malpractice. You should stop your arrogant and rude remarks about project practices that you just learned yesterday. It is not wise, to say the least, to show your ignorance by claiming you are right even after you have been pointed to your mistakes and stuff you missed in the docs. The README, INSTALL, etc. files in the top-level directory are the result of many years of experience and many users contributing to them, they are not just random text that was written yesterday and therefore needs to be polished. It's already polished, so any change you suggest based on 5 sec of thought is more than likely to have downsides that were already considered and rejected in the long history of Emacs development. You have ample opportunity to exercise some humility and learn (and you have a lot to learn, believe me) before you get to the position where you might "know better", and have the moral right to teach us what is "malpractice". Suggest to use that opportunity. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 18:31 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-20 19:12 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 20:10 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 4:27 ` tomas 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:33:41 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about > > > > installing from the tarball. > > > > > > We clearly disagree. > > > > Of course, hide it and make things more difficult for new users. And then > > expect them to figure out things by themselves. And when they ask questions, > > never be straightforward and give them the code they need to use. It is their > > job to go through the ever increasing obfuscation of information embedded within > > deeper and deeper levels of cyclomatic complexity. Classic example of development > > malpractice. > > > You should stop your arrogant and rude remarks about project practices > that you just learned yesterday. It is not wise, to say the least, to > show your ignorance by claiming you are right even after you have been > pointed to your mistakes and stuff you missed in the docs. Yes, I am right, you are wrong. > The README, INSTALL, etc. files in the top-level directory are the > result of many years of experience and many users contributing to > them, they are not just random text that was written yesterday and > therefore needs to be polished. It's already polished, so any change > you suggest based on 5 sec of thought is more than likely to have > downsides that were already considered and rejected in the long > history of Emacs development. Typical nonsense. > You have ample opportunity to exercise some humility and learn (and > you have a lot to learn, believe me) before you get to the position > where you might "know better", and have the moral right to teach us > what is "malpractice". Suggest to use that opportunity. I just look at things how they are, so one can effortlessly navigate through the material. There is no need to be humble and I definitely have the autonomy to take action without approval or authority. I am certainly not bound by any requirement of external validation or permission to do so. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 19:12 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 20:10 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 5:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 4:27 ` tomas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 20:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, help-gnu-emacs Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 7:12 AM, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote: > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote: > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:33:41 +0000 > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > > > README should describe both immediately at the start. Not just about > > > > > installing from the tarball. > > > > > > > > We clearly disagree. > > > > > > Of course, hide it and make things more difficult for new users. And then > > > expect them to figure out things by themselves. And when they ask questions, > > > never be straightforward and give them the code they need to use. It is their > > > job to go through the ever increasing obfuscation of information embedded within > > > deeper and deeper levels of cyclomatic complexity. Classic example of development > > > malpractice. > > > > You should stop your arrogant and rude remarks about project practices > > that you just learned yesterday. It is not wise, to say the least, to > > show your ignorance by claiming you are right even after you have been > > pointed to your mistakes and stuff you missed in the docs. > > > Yes, I am right, you are wrong. > > > The README, INSTALL, etc. files in the top-level directory are the > > result of many years of experience and many users contributing to > > them, they are not just random text that was written yesterday and > > therefore needs to be polished. It's already polished, so any change > > you suggest based on 5 sec of thought is more than likely to have > > downsides that were already considered and rejected in the long > > history of Emacs development. > > > Typical nonsense. > > > You have ample opportunity to exercise some humility and learn (and > > you have a lot to learn, believe me) before you get to the position > > where you might "know better", and have the moral right to teach us > > what is "malpractice". Suggest to use that opportunity. > > > I just look at things how they are, so one can effortlessly navigate > through the material. There is no need to be humble and I definitely > have the autonomy to take action without approval or authority. I am > certainly not bound by any requirement of external validation or permission > to do so. At one time you stated that one of the gravest problems you see for the future of Emacs development is that we slowly but steadily lose old-timers who know a lot about the Emacs internals ... If this tendency continues, we will soon lose the ability to make deep infrastructure changes. Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers will be able to learn quickly. But the direction I usually get is to work hard. The reality is that hard working people fail. We complain about everything in life because we're doing everything hard. Once your intelligence has turned against you, there is no power in universe that can save you, that's all. The solution is not about adding more and more stuff but having a compact enough commentary that people would be willing to spend reasonable time on compared to the time taken to complete some task. If that takes too long or requires too much jumping around, the project is history. Worked with companies like that, they are all gone. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 20:10 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 5:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 6:12 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-21 5:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:10:56 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers > will be able to learn quickly. You can write whatever you like: paper won't blush. But nothing is farther from the truth, and if someone wants to have an independent opinion, they should just look at my commit trail. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 5:22 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-21 6:12 ` Po Lu 2023-07-21 10:43 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 11:18 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 2 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2023-07-21 6:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:10:56 +0000 >> From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org >> >> Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers >> will be able to learn quickly. > > You can write whatever you like: paper won't blush. But nothing is > farther from the truth, and if someone wants to have an independent > opinion, they should just look at my commit trail. fatiparty, uzibalqa, emacsq, goncholden, Christopher Dimech, whoever you are: From March 2022 onwards, you have been sporadically posting to this list under various identities, seeking help with problems rising from incomplete or incorrect understandings of Emacs documentation, or unreasonable expectations thereof. Each time an Emacs developer tries to assist you, or points out the pertinent documentation, you find a contrived fault with that documentation or the behavior of said Emacs developer. Name-calling promptly follows, mostly from you. Multiple individuals have already castigated you for this behavior, whatever the reason for it may be. Continuing to interact this way would be to your detriment, assuming that you want to continue receiving help from the readers of this list (which is doubtful.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 6:12 ` Po Lu @ 2023-07-21 10:43 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 10:59 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 11:18 ` uzibalqa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 10:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:12 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote: > Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org writes: > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:10:56 +0000 > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers > > > will be able to learn quickly. > > > > You can write whatever you like: paper won't blush. But nothing is > > farther from the truth, and if someone wants to have an independent > > opinion, they should just look at my commit trail. > > > fatiparty, uzibalqa, emacsq, goncholden, Christopher Dimech, whoever you > are: > > From March 2022 onwards, you have been sporadically posting to this list > under various identities, seeking help with problems rising from > incomplete or incorrect understandings of Emacs documentation, or > unreasonable expectations thereof. Each time an Emacs developer tries > to assist you, or points out the pertinent documentation, you find a > contrived fault with that documentation or the behavior of said Emacs > developer. Name-calling promptly follows, mostly from you. Yes, because things are not as good as many believe they are. It is only a belief. And then we start again with the usual confidence friends declaring how my expectations are unreasonable. If I work on something, will they get accepted ? Hell no ! So then one wonders about some behavior. > Multiple individuals have already castigated you for this behavior, > whatever the reason for it may be. Continuing to interact this way > would be to your detriment, assuming that you want to continue receiving > help from the readers of this list (which is doubtful.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 10:43 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 10:59 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 10:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 10:43 PM, uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> wrote: > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:12 PM, Po Lu luangruo@yahoo.com wrote: > > > > > Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org writes: > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:10:56 +0000 > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > > > Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers > > > > will be able to learn quickly. > > > > > > You can write whatever you like: paper won't blush. But nothing is > > > farther from the truth, and if someone wants to have an independent > > > opinion, they should just look at my commit trail. > > > > fatiparty, uzibalqa, emacsq, goncholden, Christopher Dimech, whoever you > > are: It seems there are many people you don't like. > > From March 2022 onwards, you have been sporadically posting to this list > > under various identities, seeking help with problems rising from > > incomplete or incorrect understandings of Emacs documentation, or > > unreasonable expectations thereof. Each time an Emacs developer tries > > to assist you, or points out the pertinent documentation, you find a > > contrived fault with that documentation or the behavior of said Emacs > > developer. Name-calling promptly follows, mostly from you. > > > Yes, because things are not as good as many believe they are. It is only > a belief. And then we start again with the usual confidence friends declaring > how my expectations are unreasonable. If I work on something, will they get > accepted ? Hell no ! So then one wonders about some behavior. > > > Multiple individuals have already castigated you for this behavior, > > whatever the reason for it may be. Continuing to interact this way > > would be to your detriment, assuming that you want to continue receiving > > help from the readers of this list (which is doubtful.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 6:12 ` Po Lu 2023-07-21 10:43 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 11:18 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 11:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:12 PM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote: > Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org writes: > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 20:10:56 +0000 > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > Cc: Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > > Yet you continue to refuse spending effort on making sure that future developers > > > will be able to learn quickly. > > > > You can write whatever you like: paper won't blush. But nothing is > > farther from the truth, and if someone wants to have an independent > > opinion, they should just look at my commit trail. > > > fatiparty, uzibalqa, emacsq, goncholden, Christopher Dimech, whoever you > are: > > From March 2022 onwards, you have been sporadically posting to this list > under various identities, seeking help with problems rising from > incomplete or incorrect understandings of Emacs documentation, or > unreasonable expectations thereof. Each time an Emacs developer tries > to assist you, or points out the pertinent documentation, you find a > contrived fault with that documentation or the behavior of said Emacs > developer. Name-calling promptly follows, mostly from you. > > Multiple individuals have already castigated you for this behavior, > whatever the reason for it may be. Continuing to interact this way > would be to your detriment, assuming that you want to continue receiving > help from the readers of this list (which is doubtful.) Explain to me the benefit of having Cyclomatic Complexity in the documentation ? If you had a program to handle, perhaps there is a good point - still, try to get a human to understand an xml structure, will it be pleasant I ask. But you are forcing a human being (a user for that matter) to go through all the difficulties that often arise when dealing with nested or hierarchically placed information. Such schemes constitute inefficient information retrieval or navigation. Cannot see many to have enough sense to recognise this. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 11:18 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 12:40 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-21 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:18:23 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > Explain to me the benefit of having Cyclomatic Complexity in the documentation ? > If you had a program to handle, perhaps there is a good point - still, try to > get a human to understand an xml structure, will it be pleasant I ask. > > But you are forcing a human being (a user for that matter) to go through all the > difficulties that often arise when dealing with nested or hierarchically placed > information. The way we deal with this is by providing extensive indexing. You should learn to use the Info-index command (bound to 'i' inside Info) much more. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-21 12:40 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:51 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 12:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 22nd, 2023 at 12:30 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 11:18:23 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > Explain to me the benefit of having Cyclomatic Complexity in the documentation ? > > If you had a program to handle, perhaps there is a good point - still, try to > > get a human to understand an xml structure, will it be pleasant I ask. > > > > But you are forcing a human being (a user for that matter) to go through all the > > difficulties that often arise when dealing with nested or hierarchically placed > > information. > > > The way we deal with this is by providing extensive indexing. You > should learn to use the Info-index command (bound to 'i' inside Info) > much more. I will check it out using menus as example. Would you like me to report back? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 12:40 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 12:51 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-07-21 12:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:40:41 +0000 > From: uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > The way we deal with this is by providing extensive indexing. You > > should learn to use the Info-index command (bound to 'i' inside Info) > > much more. > > I will check it out using menus as example. Would you like me to report back? You (and others) are always welcome to report back. Just don't expect that every suggestion you come up with will be necessarily agreed to and implemented. I can promise you that they will be seriously considered, though. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 19:12 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 20:10 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 4:27 ` tomas 2023-07-21 10:35 ` uzibalqa 1 sibling, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: tomas @ 2023-07-21 4:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 905 bytes --] On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 07:12:21PM +0000, uzibalqa wrote: > > > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:33:41 +0000 > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me [...] > Yes, I am right, you are wrong. Given the level of experience of you both, I guess that no, Eli is most probably right and you, uzibalqa, are wrong. At least in the current context. Yes, I know that was meant as sarcasm, but ironically, it does highlight the problem at hand and why, I, at least, have decided to reduce my interactions with you as much as possible. I'm not trying to change your ways, only you can, and experience here shows that you aren't willing or able to. It's not my prerogative to judge that. I only come forward because I see Eli being unfairly attacked. Cheers -- t [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 195 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 4:27 ` tomas @ 2023-07-21 10:35 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:12 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: tomas; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 4:27 PM, tomas@tuxteam.de <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 07:12:21PM +0000, uzibalqa wrote: > > > ------- Original Message ------- > > On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 6:31 AM, Eli Zaretskii eliz@gnu.org wrote: > > > > > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 17:33:41 +0000 > > > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > > [...] > > > Yes, I am right, you are wrong. > > > Given the level of experience of you both, I guess that no, > Eli is most probably right and you, uzibalqa, are wrong. At > least in the current context. You don't know about my experience. > Yes, I know that was meant as sarcasm, but ironically, it > does highlight the problem at hand and why, I, at least, have > decided to reduce my interactions with you as much as possible. > > I'm not trying to change your ways, only you can, and experience > here shows that you aren't willing or able to. It's not my > prerogative to judge that. What I have seen is that commonly, the difficulties of users telling you this is commonly undervalued. And then times go by and people start to understand. The claim I get that everything is properly done is a serious fallacy. There should be a version of emacs where do not continually add to it, but only to get to a point where things are well designed and capable of being handle well by other programmers. Eli is getting in a difficult position, because the next poor sod is going to suffer much more or give up keep the whole thing together. > I only come forward because I see Eli being unfairly attacked. Yes Stockton, because the message is that everything is fine as it is ! > Cheers > -- > t ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 10:35 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 12:12 ` Po Lu 2023-07-21 12:52 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2023-07-21 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa; +Cc: tomas, help-gnu-emacs uzibalqa <uzibalqa@proton.me> writes: > The claim I get that everything is properly done is a serious fallacy. > There should be a version of emacs where do not continually add to it, > but only to get to a point where things are well designed and capable > of being handle well by other programmers. Eli is getting in a > difficult position, because the next poor sod is going to suffer much > more or give up keep the whole thing together. From your perspective, everyone apart from yourself is an ``Emacs developer'', engaged in a wayward conspiracy to prevent users from understanding Emacs documentation. You, a crusader fighting for the rights of the oppressed masses of Emacs users, are being silenced by companies of the King's men. The situation you illustrate couldn't be further from the truth. Perhaps you should contemplate why everyone on this list -- aside from you and your other identities, of course -- finds your demands unreasonable, and is satisfied with our current practices for writing documentation. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 12:12 ` Po Lu @ 2023-07-21 12:52 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 14:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 12:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: tomas, help-gnu-emacs ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 22nd, 2023 at 12:12 AM, Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote: > uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me writes: > > > The claim I get that everything is properly done is a serious fallacy. > > There should be a version of emacs where do not continually add to it, > > but only to get to a point where things are well designed and capable > > of being handle well by other programmers. Eli is getting in a > > difficult position, because the next poor sod is going to suffer much > > more or give up keep the whole thing together. > > > From your perspective, everyone apart from yourself is an ``Emacs > developer'', engaged in a wayward conspiracy to prevent users from > understanding Emacs documentation. You, a crusader fighting for the > rights of the oppressed masses of Emacs users, are being silenced by > companies of the King's men. > > The situation you illustrate couldn't be further from the truth. > > Perhaps you should contemplate why everyone on this list -- aside from > you and your other identities, of course -- finds your demands > unreasonable, and is satisfied with our current practices for writing > documentation. Past the elisp basics, the language interaction with emacs is generally agreed to be difficult and vast, and you'll likely get lost in a sea of details. That is accepted, and you are mistaking memory with intelligence. An automated tool would be able to do it better than you. Otherwise the way the documentation is designed has to change. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 12:52 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 14:20 ` Drew Adams 2023-07-21 15:30 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 1 reply; 28+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2023-07-21 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: uzibalqa, Po Lu; +Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > An automated tool would be able to do it > better than you. Otherwise the way the > documentation is designed has to change. (Apologies to others for tossing a stick on the dump fire...) A whiner/kvetcher bot would be able to do what you're doing here as well as you. Maybe hone your Elisp skills by writing one, then retire the man-child griping? Only half-kidding. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* RE: [External] : Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-21 14:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams @ 2023-07-21 15:30 ` uzibalqa 0 siblings, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-21 15:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Po Lu, tomas@tuxteam.de, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org ------- Original Message ------- On Saturday, July 22nd, 2023 at 2:20 AM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote: > > An automated tool would be able to do it > > better than you. Otherwise the way the > > documentation is designed has to change. > > > (Apologies to others for tossing a stick > on the dump fire...) > > A whiner/kvetcher bot would be able to > do what you're doing here as well as you. > Maybe hone your Elisp skills by writing > one, then retire the man-child griping? > > Only half-kidding. Even Montgomery used to gripe. But always gripe upwards towards the decision makers. It is a british snobbing idea that those griping should be treated like children. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
* Re: Source code, git and cvs 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 15:47 ` uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 16:05 ` uzibalqa 1 sibling, 0 replies; 28+ messages in thread From: uzibalqa @ 2023-07-20 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Sent with Proton Mail secure email. ------- Original Message ------- On Friday, July 21st, 2023 at 3:36 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > > Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2023 15:09:44 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > > > INSTALL is for building a release tarball. INSTALL.REPO is for > > > building a clone of the repository. They are different because some > > > files are present in the tarball, but not in the repository (they are > > > generated during the build from the repository). > > > > Can this detail be included in README ? Because currently README only > > describes INSTALL. > > > INSTALL itself already includes that information: > > For information about building from a Git checkout (rather than an > Emacs release), read the INSTALL.REPO file first. The README says "The file INSTALL in this directory says how to build and install GNU Emacs on various systems, once you have unpacked or checked out the entire Emacs file tree." The above is incomplete and users are given just one aspect. Instead README should explain that there are two installation mechanisms, using a "Release Tarball" or using a "Snapshot Repository". The file INSTALL describes how to build and install emacs from a tarball, whilst INSTALL-REPO explains how to build and install using a repository. Easy, to the point, and the information is provided instantly. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 28+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-07-21 15:30 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 28+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-07-20 12:01 Source code, git and cvs uzibalqa 2023-07-20 13:38 ` Po Lu 2023-07-20 13:58 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 14:23 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 15:09 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 15:34 ` Robert Pluim 2023-07-20 15:36 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 15:47 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 17:33 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 18:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-20 19:12 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 20:10 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 5:22 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 6:12 ` Po Lu 2023-07-21 10:43 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 10:59 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 11:18 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:30 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 12:40 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:51 ` Eli Zaretskii 2023-07-21 4:27 ` tomas 2023-07-21 10:35 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 12:12 ` Po Lu 2023-07-21 12:52 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-21 14:20 ` [External] : " Drew Adams 2023-07-21 15:30 ` uzibalqa 2023-07-20 16:05 ` uzibalqa
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