From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: base Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:07:15 +0300 Message-ID: <83r5hmmrz0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20100822120642.GA1794@muc.de> <87bp8uzu9d.fsf@mithlond.arda> <871v9o7dmf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrrg5rzg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87r5ho5gyr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87hbij6hib.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k4nf7ezq.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878w3v7dd2.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83wrrfmljv.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3t75crc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwy2g7i2.fsf@telefonica.net> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1282763195 29559 80.91.229.12 (25 Aug 2010 19:06:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 19:06:35 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 25 21:06:34 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoLIo-0007fg-Qp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 21:06:32 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57139 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoLIk-00021y-8E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:06:22 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=42535 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoLIa-000202-BR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:06:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoLIW-0004tt-QH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:06:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:45785) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoLIW-0004tf-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:06:08 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7Q0080029ULE00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:05:09 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.70.215.111]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7Q007UQ2CJTW80@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:05:09 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87fwy2g7i2.fsf@telefonica.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129224 Archived-At: > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 15:13:41 +0200 >=20 > The teachable mental model was something you insistently asked for = on > the first weeks of the transition to bzr. I may be misremembering, but I think I was asking something entirely different. > It is like the Principles of Physics that, once mastered, are > extremely useful while working with everything else on the field. Careful! I majored in Physics. > Git has simple foundations and those are explained on several place= s > on the net. See for example >=20 > http://www.newartisans.com/blog_files/git.from.bottom.up.php Once again, this is internals, not something users should need to grasp to use the tool effectively. We use dozens of programs every day without any comparable knowledge of how they work and what are th= e data structures they manipulate. Take any example you like: Make, GCC, GDB, you name it. Unless you happened to hack them at some point, the "mental model" each of us has about these tools generally has nothing to do with the data structures and algorithms you will find if you study the code. IOW, a "mental model" is rules of the game, they have nothing to do with the under the hood machinery that actually makes the game tick. > There is no such thing for bzr. There was some failed attempt of wr= iting > an equivalent document, which tells lots about the "simplicity" of = bzr. I rather think it speaks volumes about the (in)ability of Bazaar developers to write good documentation. The user guide reads like it was written by someone whose first language is not English and who cannot explain herself in _any_ language. > Git is a simple model wrapped on a complex UI. Bzr is a complex mod= el > wrapped on a deceptively simple UI. Changing the UI is easy (and th= ere > are lots for git.) Changing the underlying model is almost impossib= le. I have no idea what is the underlying model in Bazaar, and I don't really care how complex it is, as long as its UI is simple enough for me to build my own mental model. And as long as the UI is simple enough, I see no reason to change the underlying model. I can also tell you that after spending a year studying the display engine of Emacs, I think nothing can ever seem complex to me ;-). What I did learn during this year is that complex models are not necessarily bad or ugly or not extensible: look what I was able to do with the display engine without changing anything in its basic architecture and design.