Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>  @defvar icon-title-format
> -This variable specifies how to compute the name for an iconified frame,
> -when you have not explicitly specified the frame title.  This title
> -appears in the icon itself.
> +This variable specifies how to compute the name for an iconified frame
> +when you have not explicitly specified the frame's name via the
> +frame's parameters.  The resulting title appears in the frame's icon
> +itself.  If the value is a string, is should be a mode line construct
> +like that of @code{frame-title-format}.  The value can also be
> +@code{t}, which means to use @code{frame-title-format} instead; this
> +avoids problems with some window managers and desktop environments,
> +where a change in a frame's title (when a frame is iconified) is
> +interpreted as a request to raise the frame and/or give it input
> +focus.  The default is a string identical to the default value of
> +@code{frame-title-format}.
>  @end defvar
>  
>  @defvar multiple-frames
> diff --git a/etc/NEWS b/etc/NEWS
> index 35063678f58..133c07e56df 100644
> --- a/etc/NEWS
> +++ b/etc/NEWS
> @@ -1202,6 +1202,13 @@ the most recently deleted frame.  With a numerical prefix argument
>  between 1 and 16, where 1 is the most recently deleted frame, undelete
>  the corresponding deleted frame.
>  
> ++++
> +*** The variable 'icon-title-format' can now have the value t.
> +That value means to use 'frame-title-format' for iconified frames.
> +This is useful with some window managers and desktop environments
> +which treat changes in frame's title as requests to raise the frame
> +and/or give it input focus.
> +

"Some window managers and desktop environments" (which means KDE) giving
focus to a window because it changed its title is, definitely, a bug
that will be eventually fixed.

A reason for keeping icon-title-format in sync with frame-title-format
is for not having to also set icon-title-format whenever
frame-title-format is set (because most users will want to retain the
title of a frame when it is iconified.)

Then, we have a problem with terminology: "iconify" is a word that is
rarely used since decades ago, the current term is "minimize", so most
new users will not understand what icon-title-format is about from its
documentation.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2023 21:57:17 +0100
> 
> Then, we have a problem with terminology: "iconify" is a word that is
> rarely used since decades ago, the current term is "minimize", so most
> new users will not understand what icon-title-format is about from its
> documentation.

There's nothing we can do here.  This terminology is everywhere in
Emacs, both in documentation and in names of commands and variables.
The node "Visibility of Frames" explains the terminology, and mentions
the "minimized" alternative; it also has index entries to that effect.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Then, we have a problem with terminology: "iconify" is a word that is
>> rarely used since decades ago, the current term is "minimize", so most
>> new users will not understand what icon-title-format is about from its
>> documentation.
>
> There's nothing we can do here.  This terminology is everywhere in
> Emacs, both in documentation and in names of commands and variables.
> The node "Visibility of Frames" explains the terminology, and mentions
> the "minimized" alternative; it also has index entries to that effect.

Ok.

What about the other part on my message? The current explanation for
having `t' in icon-frame-title should be removed. OTOH, maybe we could
explain that icon-frame-title it is effective in cases where the user
does not explicitly iconify the frame, as when he moves to another
virtual desktop.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 16:02:22 +0100
> 
> What about the other part on my message?

You mean, this part:

> A reason for keeping icon-title-format in sync with frame-title-format
> is for not having to also set icon-title-format whenever
> frame-title-format is set (because most users will want to retain the
> title of a frame when it is iconified.)

?  If that's what users want, how did they do it before this change?

> The current explanation for having `t' in icon-frame-title should be
> removed.

It was the motivation for the change, AFAIU, and I'm not at all sure
KDE is the only environment where the problem happens.

If the desktop doesn't behave like KDE, users could simply set both
formats to two identical strings.  The only reason to force Emacs to
use the _same_ string (which can only be done internally) is that
those desktops misbehave.

So I don't see why we should remove the explanation.

> OTOH, maybe we could explain that icon-frame-title it is effective
> in cases where the user does not explicitly iconify the frame, as
> when he moves to another virtual desktop.

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean here.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
>> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 16:02:22 +0100
>> 
>> What about the other part on my message?
>
> You mean, this part:
>
>> A reason for keeping icon-title-format in sync with frame-title-format
>> is for not having to also set icon-title-format whenever
>> frame-title-format is set (because most users will want to retain the
>> title of a frame when it is iconified.)
>
> ?

Yes.

> If that's what users want, how did they do it before this change?

They didn't need to do anything, because icon-frame-title was
ineffective and Emacs used frame-title-format when minimized too.

>> The current explanation for having `t' in icon-frame-title should be
>> removed.
>
> It was the motivation for the change, AFAIU, and I'm not at all sure
> KDE is the only environment where the problem happens.

The problem with KDE fudging with the focus when switching virtual
desktops is a bug that manifests itself under very specific conditions
that involve mechanisms exclusive of KDE. That bug was reported to KDE
and Emacs does not need to care further about it.

As for the motivation for the change, I don't know. I proposed in #61496
that the *default* value for icon-frame-title should be `nil' (or `t',
that detail was irrelevant) for meaning "same as frame-title-format" so
the observable behavior of Emacs wrt previous releases doesn't change,
so the users have no need to tweak their configs. You rejected the
proposal and implemented support for the "same as frame-title-format"
(which is good to have) but didn't changed the default.

> If the desktop doesn't behave like KDE, users could simply set both
> formats to two identical strings.  The only reason to force Emacs to
> use the _same_ string (which can only be done internally) is that
> those desktops misbehave.

The reason to force Emacs to use the same string is to behave as most
users expect, and to avoid hard-to-detect breakage on desktop automation
setups that depend on the title of the window.

That was explained in #61496. No need to rehash the discussion here.

> So I don't see why we should remove the explanation.
>
>> OTOH, maybe we could explain that icon-frame-title it is effective
>> in cases where the user does not explicitly iconify the frame, as
>> when he moves to another virtual desktop.
>
> Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean here.

Again, it was explained in #61496.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es>
> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2023 19:51:19 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > If that's what users want, how did they do it before this change?
> 
> They didn't need to do anything, because icon-frame-title was
> ineffective and Emacs used frame-title-format when minimized too.

They don't need to do anything now, either, because the default value
of icon-frame-title is a string whose text is identical to that of
frame-title-format.

> > If the desktop doesn't behave like KDE, users could simply set both
> > formats to two identical strings.  The only reason to force Emacs to
> > use the _same_ string (which can only be done internally) is that
> > those desktops misbehave.
> 
> The reason to force Emacs to use the same string is to behave as most
> users expect, and to avoid hard-to-detect breakage on desktop automation
> setups that depend on the title of the window.
> 
> That was explained in #61496. No need to rehash the discussion here.
> 
> > So I don't see why we should remove the explanation.
> >
> >> OTOH, maybe we could explain that icon-frame-title it is effective
> >> in cases where the user does not explicitly iconify the frame, as
> >> when he moves to another virtual desktop.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean here.
> 
> Again, it was explained in #61496.

Look, you started this discussion.  Now it sounds like you don't want
to continue it.  Neither do I, as a matter of fact.  I see no need to
change anything in the documentation of these features.

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Óscar Fuentes]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> They didn't need to do anything, because icon-frame-title was
>> ineffective and Emacs used frame-title-format when minimized too.
>
> They don't need to do anything now, either, because the default value
> of icon-frame-title is a string whose text is identical to that of
> frame-title-format.

If the user's config sets frame-title-format, after upgrading to 29 the
title will be something else when the frame is minimized.

>> > If the desktop doesn't behave like KDE, users could simply set both
>> > formats to two identical strings.  The only reason to force Emacs to
>> > use the _same_ string (which can only be done internally) is that
>> > those desktops misbehave.
>> 
>> The reason to force Emacs to use the same string is to behave as most
>> users expect, and to avoid hard-to-detect breakage on desktop automation
>> setups that depend on the title of the window.
>> 
>> That was explained in #61496. No need to rehash the discussion here.
>> 
>> > So I don't see why we should remove the explanation.
>> >
>> >> OTOH, maybe we could explain that icon-frame-title it is effective
>> >> in cases where the user does not explicitly iconify the frame, as
>> >> when he moves to another virtual desktop.
>> >
>> > Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean here.
>> 
>> Again, it was explained in #61496.
>
> Look, you started this discussion.  Now it sounds like you don't want
> to continue it.  Neither do I, as a matter of fact.  I see no need to
> change anything in the documentation of these features.

I was just trying to point some totally unnecesary and potentially
misleading text in the documentation:

> +This is useful with some window managers and desktop environments
> +which treat changes in frame's title as requests to raise the frame
> +and/or give it input focus.

I discovered that bug on KDE, I analyzed it, I reported it [1]. It is a
bug specific of KDE and Emacs has nothing to do with it. There is
nothing on the change to icon-frame-title that makes it a workaround for
that bug. I don't understand why we have to discuss this, even less go
back to a tangentially related topic that was already discussed and
closed (#61496).

1. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465530

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Po Lu]

Why not write:

"This is useful on certain versions of KDE, where [description of the bug]"

in NEWS instead?  It would be much less misleading.

On February 22, 2023 3:48:29 AM GMT+08:00, "Óscar Fuentes" <ofv@wanadoo.es> wrote:
>Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>>> They didn't need to do anything, because icon-frame-title was
>>> ineffective and Emacs used frame-title-format when minimized too.
>>
>> They don't need to do anything now, either, because the default value
>> of icon-frame-title is a string whose text is identical to that of
>> frame-title-format.
>
>If the user's config sets frame-title-format, after upgrading to 29 the
>title will be something else when the frame is minimized.
>
>>> > If the desktop doesn't behave like KDE, users could simply set both
>>> > formats to two identical strings.  The only reason to force Emacs to
>>> > use the _same_ string (which can only be done internally) is that
>>> > those desktops misbehave.
>>> 
>>> The reason to force Emacs to use the same string is to behave as most
>>> users expect, and to avoid hard-to-detect breakage on desktop automation
>>> setups that depend on the title of the window.
>>> 
>>> That was explained in #61496. No need to rehash the discussion here.
>>> 
>>> > So I don't see why we should remove the explanation.
>>> >
>>> >> OTOH, maybe we could explain that icon-frame-title it is effective
>>> >> in cases where the user does not explicitly iconify the frame, as
>>> >> when he moves to another virtual desktop.
>>> >
>>> > Sorry, I don't think I understand what you mean here.
>>> 
>>> Again, it was explained in #61496.
>>
>> Look, you started this discussion.  Now it sounds like you don't want
>> to continue it.  Neither do I, as a matter of fact.  I see no need to
>> change anything in the documentation of these features.
>
>I was just trying to point some totally unnecesary and potentially
>misleading text in the documentation:
>
>> +This is useful with some window managers and desktop environments
>> +which treat changes in frame's title as requests to raise the frame
>> +and/or give it input focus.
>
>I discovered that bug on KDE, I analyzed it, I reported it [1]. It is a
>bug specific of KDE and Emacs has nothing to do with it. There is
>nothing on the change to icon-frame-title that makes it a workaround for
>that bug. I don't understand why we have to discuss this, even less go
>back to a tangentially related topic that was already discussed and
>closed (#61496).
>
>1. https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465530
>
>

Re: emacs-29 b44a7ff85dc: Allow 'icon-title-format' to have the value t

[Óscar Fuentes]

Po Lu <Luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Why not write:
>
> "This is useful on certain versions of KDE, where [description of the bug]"
>
> in NEWS instead?  It would be much less misleading.

But the point is that the special value for icon-title-format is not all
that helpful at avoiding that bug. Certainly not more than

(setq icon-title-format (setq frame-title-format "blah))

... and even then the problem may happen anyway.

Plus, the KDE bug requires an specific configuration of KWin, so it is
not a frequent case at all.

At first I thought that Emacs was buggy, so I created an Emacs bug
report. Then we discovered that KDE is buggy and closed the issue, but
in the meantime I noticed that Emacs changing the frame title when it is
minimized can be problematic, and thus created another bug report
suggesting to set the default of icon-title-format to stay in sync with
frame-title-format. Somehow Eli mixed those two issues and introduced a
change to icon-title-format thinking on the original bug report.