From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:43:59 +0200 Message-ID: <83pppj77r4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83d2lrczi7.fsf@gnu.org> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> <87li074mxc.fsf@gmail.com> <83zjon7evk.fsf@gnu.org> <8761rb4jts.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385725507 21807 80.91.229.3 (29 Nov 2013 11:45:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 11:45:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jambunathan K Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 29 12:45:11 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VmMVS-0005jY-Lv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 12:45:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46922 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmMVS-0005wG-54 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 06:45:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmMVK-0005qg-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 06:45:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmMVD-0000ho-4y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 06:45:01 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:42217) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmMVC-0000hk-So for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 06:44:55 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MX000500WHVOB00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:44:09 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MX0005BTWLLLW40@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 13:44:09 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <8761rb4jts.fsf@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165865 Archived-At: > From: Jambunathan K > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 15:21:27 +0530 >=20 > What if I want a bidi-paragraph-direction where the "directionality= is > UNLIKE the first strong directional character". >=20 > Emacs cannot do that. Yes, it can: set bidi-paragraph-direction to either left-to-right or right-to-left, and that setting will override the dynamic determination of paragraph base direction by its first strong directional character. This is the equivalent of the following Offic= e feature: > | In OpenOffice Writer, pages can be configured as RTL in Format = =E2=86=92 Page =E2=86=92 > | Page =E2=86=92 Text Direction. If you need to override the base direction of a single paragraph, as in this feature: > | Paragraphs can be configured to RTL in Fo= rmat =E2=86=92 > | Paragraph =E2=86=92 Alignment =E2=86=92 Text Direction. then simply insert LRM or RLM characters at the beginning of that paragraph. > ps: When I ask this question, I assume that the people who wrote th= e > standards have good enough reasons to introduce tag paragraph > "explicitly". There are no "tag paragraphs" in the Unicode Standard. There's a reference to "higher-level protocols", which can be anything. But until and unless someone explains why inserting invisible control characters is not enough, I see no reason to introduce anything more complex into Emacs. In any case, such additional features will only make sense if Emacs saves the buffer as something other than plain text, because in plain text, _the_only_ means of overriding directionality is with the bidirectional control characters. > ,---- > | bidi-paragraph-direction is a variable defined in `C source code'= . > | Its value is nil > |=20 > | Automatically becomes buffer-local when set. > | This variable is safe as a file local variable if its value > | satisfies the predicate which is a byte-compiled expression. > |=20 > | Documentation: > | If non-nil, forces directionality of text paragraphs in the buffe= r. > |=20 > | If this is nil (the default), the direction of each paragraph is > | determined by the first strong directional character of its text. > | The values of `right-to-left' and `left-to-right' override that. > | Any other value is treated as nil. > |=20 > `---- Yes, exactly: see the last paragraph of this doc string. > I was responding to Raman and merely noting that word-processing mo= de > cannot be discerned just in terms of aesthetics or content alone. > Directonality is neither about aesthetic nor about content but abou= t > convention. It falls in a no-man land. It falls in the display engine land. > >> Now if you want to have Tables with Bidi-text then Orgmode is > >> practically useless. > > > > "Practically useless" is a wild exaggeration. I use it just fine= . >=20 > This is not a criticism of Bidi. This thread is about why an > word-processing mode would make sense INSPITE of powerfulness of > Org-mode. You said that Org mode is practically useless when used with bidirectional text. I'm saying that I use Org like that every day, s= o it is not useless. IOW, this is not about Bidi, this is about Org used with bidirectiona= l scripts. > Currently, in Org-mode, one cannot have multi-paragraph tables. > Assuming that in near future, it does support such tables, how woul= d one > go about fixing the directionality. You already asked this in the past, and I already provided several alternatives. One is to use TAB characters, another is to use the '(space . PROPS)' display spec, yet another is to use RLM/RLM controls. Between these, I don't believe there's a problem we won't be able to solve.