From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: dak@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master db828f6: Don't rely on defaults in decoding UTF-8 encoded Lisp files
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 10:27:58 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83pp14fhj5.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <560700E1.4010403@cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: dak@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 13:32:33 -0700
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > The relevant statistics for Emacs is of source files, not of HTML
> > pages.
>
> Sure, and source files are how this thread got started: nowadays in GNU projects
> they're typically UTF-8 regardless of system locale settings, and Emacs should
> be better about supporting this typical situation. UTF-8 is common partly
> because source files are shared widely via the Internet, on sites like Savannah.
>
> The days of lonely hackers writing code in their own private Shift-JIS
> directories are largely over. Of course Emacs can still support such users, but
> the default should be tailored to what's more typical nowadays.
Emacs supports the typical situation quite well already, definitely so
in a typical (i.e. UTF-8) locale. The issue at hand is not how to
support the typical situation, it's whether that typical situation is
the _only_ situation that matters, so much so that we can ignore the
locale-derived defaults.
In any case, I said we needed _statistics_, i.e. numbers, not just
impressions and opinions.
I don't know how to find a representative set of C sources, not even
for European locales. I looked at the C files of GNU projects from
the last years on my main development system, which is probably not
very representative. There are more than 142,000 C files there.
Using the 'file' utility, I found about 1.8% of UTF-8 encoded files
and about 0.2% ISO-8859 encoded files (the vast majority was US ASCII,
of course). That's still more than 250 ISO-8859 encoded files.
I've also looked at the *.po files in the latest releases of GNU Make,
Gawk, Texinfo, and Binutils, and I find that between 20% and 25% of
such files still use non-UTF-8 encodings. I see similar figures for
the txi-*.tex files that came with Texinfo 6.0. Presumably, that
follows the default conventions of the respective locales.
So, while I agree with you that UTF-8 encoded files are the majority
among non-ASCII files (and Emacs development aligns itself with that
fact very well), the non-UTF-8 minority, even in the Posix world, is
still significant enough, and we cannot possibly ignore it.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-09-27 7:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20150921165211.20434.28114@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <E1Ze4K3-0005KC-5U@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
2015-09-21 19:57 ` [Emacs-diffs] master db828f6: Don't rely on defaults in decoding UTF-8 encoded Lisp files Stefan Monnier
2015-09-21 20:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-24 16:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-24 21:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-09-25 7:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-25 12:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-09-25 13:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-25 22:32 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 6:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 6:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 14:31 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 15:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 16:01 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 16:09 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-26 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 18:53 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 20:26 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-26 21:50 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 4:44 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 5:29 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 7:38 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 7:46 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 7:52 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 9:47 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 9:54 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:03 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 10:12 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 11:10 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 22:48 ` Richard Stallman
2015-09-28 2:41 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-28 6:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-28 15:08 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-28 15:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:52 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:00 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 8:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:29 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:37 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 8:40 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:50 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 16:03 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-27 18:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 19:52 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-27 20:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 20:32 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 7:27 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2015-09-27 7:42 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 9:20 ` Rustom Mody
2015-09-27 10:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 20:21 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 21:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:22 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 9:56 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 10:04 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 10:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 20:05 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 18:51 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 0:12 ` stephen
2015-09-27 4:44 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 6:20 ` stephen
2015-09-27 8:34 ` Paul Eggert
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