bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Drew Adams]

> Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now.

Not a great reason not to rename and alias.

> > How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?
> 
> Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there.  On all the
> toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds.

I already looked at all occurrences in the Lisp sources.

AFAICT, _none_ of those occurrences show how it's used
in the sense of explaining its effect.

I'm looking for info about its implementation and what
it actually does - info presumably available in some C
code.  HOW it does what it does.

See also the question about whether it's used only by
toolkits.  In GUI Emacs on MS Windows, for instance,
the effect of a separator is a continuous separator
line, while the effect with `emacs -nw' seems to be a
pair of hyphen chars.

> > It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it.  But
> > changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows.  If
> > this is hard-coded then why is it even needed?
> 
> See above.  If you really want to see the effect of changing it
> (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs.

You think so?  How about having the doc specify that,
or whatever the actual behavior is.

FWIW, this bug report is a result of seeing this user
question:

"Is it possible to change the menu separator?"

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/62717/105

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 08:34:04 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 45806@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now.
> 
> Not a great reason not to rename and alias.

Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the
project maintainers?

> > > How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?
> > 
> > Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there.  On all the
> > toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds.
> 
> I already looked at all occurrences in the Lisp sources.

Then I really wonder why are you asking all these questions.

> AFAICT, _none_ of those occurrences show how it's used
> in the sense of explaining its effect.

You see the effect as soon as you look at the menus which use it.

> I'm looking for info about its implementation and what
> it actually does - info presumably available in some C
> code.  HOW it does what it does.

The HOW is always in the code, so filing a bug about the documentation
is not going to reveal that: we won't describe the implementation in
the documentation.

So I'm closing this bug report.

> See also the question about whether it's used only by
> toolkits.  In GUI Emacs on MS Windows, for instance,
> the effect of a separator is a continuous separator
> line, while the effect with `emacs -nw' seems to be a
> pair of hyphen chars.

Each toolkit/UI variant produces its particular visual, but they all
do, and the effect is the same: to visually separate between groups of
menu items.

> > See above.  If you really want to see the effect of changing it
> > (why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs.
> 
> You think so?  How about having the doc specify that,
> or whatever the actual behavior is.

I see no reason.  You are looking for the kind of internal details
that are always found in the code.

> FWIW, this bug report is a result of seeing this user
> question:
> 
> "Is it possible to change the menu separator?"
> 
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/62717/105

Not every question means something is wrong with our documentation.
Sometimes the answer is "use the source, Luc".

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Drew Adams]

> > > Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now.
> >
> > Not a great reason not to rename and alias.

IMHO.

> Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the
> project maintainers?

Why am I not surprised that you are personally
hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance
of a decision?

Can we not politely agree to disagree about what
should be done, without your going off again on
your claims of insubordination?

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:09:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 45806-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the
> > project maintainers?
> 
> Why am I not surprised that you are personally
> hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance
> of a decision?

You expressed your opinion, heard is rejection, and you keep arguing.
Are you aware that every one of your messages with repetitive
disagreements means another message I need to read and consider?  Do
you think I have lots of free time for doing that?

> Can we not politely agree to disagree about what
> should be done

We can, but one message from each side should be enough for that.
There should be no need for "I heard you, but I still disagree".  It's
a waste of time and energy.

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2021 10:09:08 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Cc: 45806-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Why am I not surprised that you don't accept the judgment of the
> > project maintainers?
> 
> Why am I not surprised that you are personally
> hostile, and interpret an opinion as non-acceptance
> of a decision?

You expressed your opinion, heard its rejection, but you keep arguing.
That generates more messages than necessary and increase the workload
for no good reason, while telling nothing new.  Why increase the noise
level here?

> Can we not politely agree to disagree about what
> should be done

We can, but one message from each side should be enough for that.
There should be no need for "I heard you, but I still disagree".  It's
a waste of time and energy.

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Drew Adams]

This variable (defconst) doesn't seem to be documented anywhere.

It seems to be used for menus in general; it doesn't seem to be tied to
the menu-bar in any way.  And its only doc is the doc string, which says
only "Separator for menus."  Could it be renamed to remove any mention
of the menu-bar (keeping the old name as alias)?

How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?

It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it.  But
changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows.  If
this is hard-coded then why is it even needed?

In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2019-08-29
Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''

bug#45806: 26.3; `menu-bar-separator'

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 16:32:31 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> 
> This variable (defconst) doesn't seem to be documented anywhere.

It has a doc string, and if you look at its usage, this is all you'll
ever need.

> It seems to be used for menus in general; it doesn't seem to be tied to
> the menu-bar in any way.  And its only doc is the doc string, which says
> only "Separator for menus."  Could it be renamed to remove any mention
> of the menu-bar (keeping the old name as alias)?

Sorry, this name is with us for too long to rename it now.

> How is it actually used?  Is it used only in (some?) toolkits?

Look at menu-bar.el (obviously), it's used all over there.  On all the
toolkits and also in no-toolkit builds.

> It's a defconst (why?), so presumably you shouldn't change it.  But
> changing it doesn't seem to have any effect anyway, in MS Windows.  If
> this is hard-coded then why is it even needed?

See above.  If you really want to see the effect of changing it
(why?), I think you will need to rebuild Emacs.