From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:19:06 +0300 Message-ID: <83ocedtbf9.fsf@gnu.org> References: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278919300 23719 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 07:21:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 07:21:40 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 09:21:38 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYDKZ-00046F-DM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:21:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57189 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYDKY-0007ML-IX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:21:34 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=57712 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYDKR-0007LZ-6K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:21:28 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYDKP-0005o5-Or for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:21:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:40031) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYDKP-0005nz-IT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 03:21:25 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5F00K00NGC5800@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:09 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5F00FJMOF6NRE0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:21:07 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127083 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:23:48 +0900 > Cc: Lennart Borgman , > "emacs-devel@gnu.org" > > It's a shame that GNU Emacs, of all the projects in the world, feels > so impoverished that its developers can't take time out to mentor > somebody like Lennart, show him the ropes, and *teach* him how to make > submissions that get accepted the first time around and require only > minor adjustments and checks before integration to the trunk. Stephen, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you are talking out of ignorance. You've read one or two recent threads, formed your own illusion of what they tell, and now attack the wrong people based on that illusion. This is imply unfair. The facts are different. Indeed, a very small part of Lennart's patches were outright rejected, because they were based on wrong assumptions and ideas. However, most of his patches were not rejected. They got _reviewed_, and the review yielded _comments_ and requests for changes. The problem started when Lennart effectively refused to modify his code according to the comments. Instead, he argued time and again that his code was correct, and the reviewers were wrong. This led to endless discussions going in circles and leading nowhere, so people tend to cut their losses and stop responding. The result is that his patches are left hanging in the air. And after several such experiences, I cannot blame anyone for trying to cut their losses even _before_ entering the same vicious circle for the N+1st time. IOW, if there is stubbornness, you will find plenty of it -- on Lennart's side. His lack of will to compromise and hear to *mentors* and learn from them is profound, and doesn't seem to be prone to change any time soon. While Lennart is entitled to his views and ways of socializing with others, it is very hard to teach and mentor someone who in effect thinks, even if he doesn't say that explicitly, that he is always right. It's a shame that Emacs development seems to lose Lennart's resources of time and energy, but I really don't see how things could go differently, given his repeated attitude and lack of will to be taught and become part of a team.