From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: text-quoting-style Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:42:31 +0300 Message-ID: <83oahr4xe0.fsf@gnu.org> References: <55E0085D.3000404@cs.ucla.edu> <83pp2750e1.fsf@gnu.org> <55E013C0.1060106@cs.ucla.edu> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1440751380 25367 80.91.229.3 (28 Aug 2015 08:43:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 08:43:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Aug 28 10:42:51 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVFFK-00083M-20 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 10:42:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46732 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVFFJ-0007aZ-3N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:42:49 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35366) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVFF4-0007aI-0G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:42:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVFF0-0003yg-NI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:42:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:35135) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZVFF0-0003yT-Fb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 04:42:30 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NTS00A00AP09800@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:42:28 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.94.185.246]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NTS009LGAUSY6A0@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:42:28 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <55E013C0.1060106@cs.ucla.edu> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189255 Archived-At: > Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Paul Eggert > Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2015 00:54:40 -0700 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> That should suffice for Alan's preferences, as > >> >he can run Emacs in an environment where curved quotes aren't displayable, e.g., > >> >with LC_ALL=C in the environment. > > Telling people who don't see the Unicode quotes to run under LC_ALL=C > > is not a good idea, for at least two reasons: > > > > . on platforms that honor LC_ALL in the environment, it will disable > > many useful Emacs features unrelated to the issue at hand > > Can you give an example of such a feature? I'm not seeing the problem. Anything that is decoded using locale-coding-system, or the default values derived from it. If the real locale is nothing like C, I expect the result to be strings full of raw bytes. If the real locale's codeset is UTF-8, you might get away for a while (because Emacs generally strives to DTRT with unibyte strings), but with any other codeset the problem should be immediately clear. E.g., start Emacs in that way in such a locale, and then look at exec-path: if there are any non-ASCII file names there, I expect you to see raw bytes. Also, some of the guesswork within detect-coding stuff will do wrong things. > In environments that can't handle Unicode, perhaps Emacs disables some other > features regardless of text quoting style. If so, it should be OK to disable > curved quote display too. Sorry, "disable" was not a good choice of words. I meant "break". > > . on platforms that don't honor LC_ALL in the environment (Windows), > > it won't have any effect > > My suggestion was meant for Alan's environment But there are people who use other environments that expressed their dislike of this change. > The suggestion wasn't meant for Windows users, where I assume the > problem is solved in a different way There's no way I know of to run programs on Windows while setting the locale to a non-default value for just that program. The only possibility I'm aware of is for the program itself to call 'setlocale' or its low-level Windows equivalents. So if we want to remove text-quoting-style (I don't think we should), we should at least provide an Emacs command-line option that would cause Emacs itself call 'setlocale' at startup to switch to a C locale. That would at least be portable, although the problems I mentioned above with locale-coding-system derived values will still be there. The next logical step is to provide an option to turn off only these quotes. But that's almost identical to what text-quoting-style already provides, isn't it? > and no suggestion is needed. ??? Of course it's needed. Unless we would like to tell those users to get lost.