From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: emacs-29 9b775ddc057 1/2: ; * etc/EGLOT-NEWS: Fix wording of last change. Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 17:11:28 +0300 Message-ID: <83o7mxft2n.fsf@gnu.org> References: <168335548287.8529.4912240840977468283@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <20230506064443.56C75C22F15@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> <59835735-faa0-4096-e491-35ec92964b7a@gutov.dev> <831qjthhm8.fsf@gnu.org> <715cdac6-83f6-6907-2ff8-3b33381f3487@gutov.dev> <83zg6hg29c.fsf@gnu.org> <83ttwpfvcr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6456"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 06 16:11:17 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pvId3-0001V8-9G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 06 May 2023 16:11:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvIcM-0004Bd-Dq; Sat, 06 May 2023 10:10:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvIcL-0004BJ-J4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 May 2023 10:10:33 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvIcL-0006N9-5X; Sat, 06 May 2023 10:10:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=Dvr1oDjxJfYoO6w0pPxwODEulS8lIsOObns1d/DY+E0=; b=PBlmju8aujsns0FzsQzi iTpXS6IKOnCkBY15KqL9D+OhPV6gyBjh4E/SwVtaYd0evXdTz3Oes7zgGS/l/Ppr3aGlcrPVkp/e4 DEwU3kpJO5O4Zno50paqJ0NvfSugSXboTR15cB60V1+RD0JjL63aHOEY5MlzcbuyhnCGCqmVznQ7N jQ3/WZbHyqpQ458rGLkrMiRKaofmdrlUOd5XXTW0LZHuA5zvPDHpuEnWv9b20nJRsiqeNuam4WXUq Zn7iE+ZiJYeod0xRvmru64kcl2mUqyEDn+DOniM/1CTexE37CoS94H3Y2iFntZ0anzyv+zjuI/ttG c9UWnHuT9R0C7Q==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pvIcK-0004Lf-CH; Sat, 06 May 2023 10:10:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 6 May 2023 14:48:15 +0100) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305906 Archived-At: > From: João Távora > Date: Sat, 6 May 2023 14:48:15 +0100 > Cc: dmitry@gutov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 2:21 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > From: João Távora > > > Date: Sat, 6 May 2023 14:03:02 +0100 > > > Cc: Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > > > On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 11:52 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > > > > I'm surprised, to say the least. To recap: > > > > > > > > . the entire discussion of bug#62720, of which this is fallout, was > > > > about allowing package-install to upgrade Eglot, and according to > > > > João, that's what package-install did before Emacs 29. Was this > > > > all based on a mistake? if so, why no one has said so in all that > > > > long argument?? > > > > > > > > > One more time: in Emacs 28 package-install doesn't upgrade, > > > but it installs the latest, which is incompatible behaviour > > > if you move to Emacs 29, where that won't happen. > > > > Is this for Eglot (and use-package), or is this for any package > > installed from ELPA? IOW, does Emacs 29's package-install still > > install the latest version of a package from ELPA? And does that > > happen even if some older version of a package is already installed? > > Yes to the first, no to the second. > > > > So if you're used to setting up a brand new Emacs 28 and > > > package-install Eglot to get versions with nice features and > > > bugfixes, you may be dismayed to find that doing the very > > > same thing in Emacs 29 results in what will probably be a > > > old version. > > > > Are you talking about users who didn't update their Eglot, except when > > a new Emacs version was released? Or are you talking about users who > > updated Eglot from ELPA (using package-install) even between Emacs > > releases? Or are you talking about something else entirely? > > Just spend that minute, Eli. Call it an investment. And then > re-read what I wrote in that paragraph. It will make sense. > > > > And this problem will persist _and_ worsen during the lifetime of > > > Emacs 29 > > > > Why do you insist on reiterating past disagreements, especially when > > they are tangents, is beyond me. > > You brought it up!!! You asked "was this all based on a mistake?" > I just clarified and summarized what happens! > > > > Anyway, experimenting and experiencing this yourself will > > > take at most a minute if you have Emacs 28 and Emacs 29 > > > handy, so there's no shroud of mystery whatsoever. > > > > Why do you think I even have a minute to spare? > > Clearly, unless you're some kind of superhuman being, you're > wasting much more time writing these messages. So I figured > a minute of experimentation would probably save a lot of > your time and our collective time. > > You're still asking me questions, and then when I answer > them you say I'm bringing up old past disagreements. > > > I'm asking the experts on package.el to describe what happens > > precisely _because_ I don't have that time. For example, today, I've > > been at the keyboard, working on various Emacs issues for the last 7 > > hours without any breaks, and this is my weekend! > > For your health, take a break Eli. > > > > But we already went through all this, and all these decisions > > > have been made already, and they are ultimately all legitimate > > > even if we all disagree. > > > > It sounds like what we went through was based on a misunderstanding, > > or at least Dmitry says it was. > > Again, please invest that minute (after taking a break, of course). > > > > I don't think the NEWS entry needed rewording: it didn't > > > say anything inaccurate or misleading. You made it more > > > complete, and perfectly accurate, but also more inescrutable, > > > which is not really what NEWS should be about IMO. > > > > Clearly, if I thought the original wording was acceptable, I wouldn't > > have touched it > > There was nothing wrong or misleading about it. What possibly > can be wrong or unacceptable in announcing "Eglot can upgrade > itself to the latest version." to Eglot users? But let's just let it go, your > reworking isn't that horrible either. You are not helping. None of this helps. I asked specific questions, but got no answers I can use.