From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:54:04 +0300 Message-ID: <83o7gokwpf.fsf@gnu.org> References: <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <83lebyu5yx.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f43123d7dee59461@heytings.org> <835y2xo1a5.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f4312391906f6101@heytings.org> <831qdlo084.fsf@gnu.org> <83edhkmfax.fsf@gnu.org> <87msw8kx6j.fsf@dataswamp.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12991"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 24 15:45:14 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qvHic-000398-5s for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 15:45:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvGvR-0002ha-8i; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:54:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvGvM-0002bA-Ua for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:54:21 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvGvL-0004hI-Oj; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:54:19 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=5346zocqa3GqnChnQwT3Z+1xlNp/dmG0wnHy+ssBtKc=; b=YsSU9ZbfOHgO 0YZe5wGISL1rslNrcbTqwMwBkMgi1KsQqVAD7upZmZgozQ3Esn20LdTk4pmMsvzrcr4czG8eUAEgY ZBgNg05QEj9cvjVOtP/xpFL7F2ib7Jrn9G+Vj09XEfAWynn8nPeovh+PKOwQg7VlPZgJ11sqmjvL+ 8NJRgDmNS7HYdWzYQXplHNQULdZFOluQ/T7FPH9+X5N97fbxYln2UDxN4wNl9VgBPvYEiSYqFUHm7 tp0MHHzpn6g99QLWfh+nN0rBpQWm30Y6CbaYMTLq3AhrY7NzggpQERQWvOS8AfenxxZJ50hgCILPA MDxgdzFHqI5ngWdq28FQ4w==; In-Reply-To: <87msw8kx6j.fsf@dataswamp.org> (message from Emanuel Berg on Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:43:48 +0200) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311792 Archived-At: > From: Emanuel Berg > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:43:48 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > If we ignore such "micro optimizations", we will quickly > > bloat Emacs, since those small amounts add up. We have a lot > > of relatively small potential additions that we make a point > > of not adding, because if we decide adding one is okay, then > > why not add all the rest? We don't add such stuff to subr.el > > or to simple.el or to files.el, and keep them separate, > > precisely because adding them all will not be insignificant. > > > > The only way of keeping this kind of bloat at bay is to > > resist adding anything, no matter how small, because, like > > I said, it's a slippery slope. > > While I agree one shouldn't ignore micro optimizations in > general, you keep refering to useful Elisp as bloat. No, I said that loading stuff that _is_not_necessary_ will _cause_ bloat. Please don't misrepresent what I wrote. > That is disrespectful and also not true, it is useful code, and > where it is or isn't added or loaded doesn't change it into > something it isn't. See above. > Also, instead of the general "slippery slope" model of thought > and offered explanation, it is better to either have a clear > policy "we add stuff that [...]". The policy exists and is clear: we don' preload anything that isn't needed by Emacs either during the dumping process or when it starts after dumping.