From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: base Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:10:34 +0300 Message-ID: <83mxsam5lh.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20100822120642.GA1794@muc.de> <87bp8uzu9d.fsf@mithlond.arda> <871v9o7dmf.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrrg5rzg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87r5ho5gyr.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87hbij6hib.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87k4nf7ezq.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <878w3v7dd2.fsf@catnip.gol.com> <83wrrfmljv.fsf@gnu.org> <87d3t75crc.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwy2g7i2.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r5hmmrz0.fsf@gnu.org> <877hjefll8.fsf@telefonica.net> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1282792148 560 80.91.229.12 (26 Aug 2010 03:09:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2010 03:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 26 05:09:06 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSpr-0007sk-Mk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 05:09:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60245 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoSpq-00076U-UH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:09:02 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=60594 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OoSph-00072i-DY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:08:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSpf-0008MH-OO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:08:53 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:33573) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OoSpf-0008M9-Hn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:08:51 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L7Q00500OQ4N400@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:08:28 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([84.228.186.164]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L7Q005QDOQ2MA20@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Thu, 26 Aug 2010 06:08:28 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <877hjefll8.fsf@telefonica.net> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:129235 Archived-At: > From: =C3=93scar Fuentes > Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 23:06:59 +0200 >=20 > I will not be so foolish to argue with you about what you had in mi= nd at > the time, but it looked like "I want to obtain the necessary knowle= dge > to *decide* what is the most effective way of working with bzr for = me." > A good answer for that sort of request is pointing to a document > explaining the foundations of the tool, from which everything else > derives. That wasn't the answer I was expecting. I expected to see several possible workflows with some analysis of their merits and demerits. There's no need to know how a repository stores its info for that. > >> http://www.newartisans.com/blog_files/git.from.bottom.up.php > > > > Once again, this is internals, not something users should need to > > grasp to use the tool effectively. >=20 > You can use git effectively (for some reasonable definition of > effectiveness) without knowing those details. Knowing them helps a = lot, > though. And they are not internal details, for the same reason that= the > point, the mark, etc are not internal details for the Emacs user, > although you can use Emacs without knowing them. Mark and point _are_ internal details. Most users don't have a clue about their implementation, not even about the fact that their API is a function (as opposed to a variable, for instance). What users are told is some "model" of mark and point, and the model actually has more to do with _what_ these do than how they do it. > > IOW, a "mental model" is rules of the game, they have nothing to = do > > with the under the hood machinery that actually makes the game ti= ck. >=20 > That document explains, precisely, the rules of the game, i.e. the = model > that every git implementation must follow. I meant the rules of the game for the user, not for the implementation. Users should not be bothered by implementation details. > > I have no idea what is the underlying model in Bazaar, and I don'= t > > really care how complex it is, as long as its UI is simple enough= for > > me to build my own mental model. And as long as the UI is simple > > enough, I see no reason to change the underlying model. >=20 > And if a merge causes unexpected results, what would you do? Blame = the > UI? I'd say there's a bug that needs to be fixed. > > I can also tell you that after spending a year studying the displ= ay > > engine of Emacs, I think nothing can ever seem complex to me ;-). > > What I did learn during this year is that complex models are not > > necessarily bad or ugly or not extensible: look what I was able t= o do > > with the display engine without changing anything in its basic > > architecture and design. >=20 > I guess that most part of that year was consumed by the study of th= e > *implementation* of the display engine, not its model (unless you > learned the model by reading the implementation.) Of course! because I needed to _extend_ the display engine. But as a bzr user, I do not need to extend it, so I shouldn't need to bother about such details.