* .info files @ 2012-04-12 14:38 Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-12 16:12 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-12 14:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel It would be nice if .info files opened up in Info-mode automatically. E.g. something like, (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) (let ((file-name (buffer-file-name))) (kill-buffer (current-buffer)) (info file-name))))) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 14:38 .info files Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-12 16:12 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-04-12 16:49 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-04-12 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ams; +Cc: emacs-devel > It would be nice if .info files opened up in Info-mode automatically. > E.g. something like, > (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist > '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) > (let ((file-name (buffer-file-name))) > (kill-buffer (current-buffer)) > (info file-name))))) Agreed. I wrote Info-on-current-buffer a long time ago to try and address this need, but it's clearly not good enough. Your code above is (sadly) not quite good enough either since its use of kill-buffer+info will likely introduce misbehaviors in various cases. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 16:12 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2012-04-12 16:49 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-12 18:30 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-12 16:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > It would be nice if .info files opened up in Info-mode automatically. > E.g. something like, > (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist > '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) > (let ((file-name (buffer-file-name))) > (kill-buffer (current-buffer)) > (info file-name))))) Agreed. I wrote Info-on-current-buffer a long time ago to try and address this need, but it's clearly not good enough. Your code above is (sadly) not quite good enough either since its use of kill-buffer+info will likely introduce misbehaviors in various cases. True that, what about the following: (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) (require 'info) (info-setup (buffer-file-name) (current-buffer))))) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 16:49 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-12 18:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-13 19:19 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-04-12 18:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ams; +Cc: emacs-devel > True that, what about the following: > (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist > '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) > (require 'info) > (info-setup (buffer-file-name) (current-buffer))))) Looks better, indeed. Still sounds a bit risky since it throws away the current content of the buffer, so it probably won't work right in things like archive-members. Stefan PS: Reminds me that I don't like the way our Info files (and some other project's as well) don't have a .info extension. PPS: And of course, the question remains of what to do when visiting foo-N.info. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 18:30 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-13 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-17 13:34 ` Nix 2012-04-13 19:19 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-12 21:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel > True that, what about the following: > (add-to-list 'auto-mode-alist > '("\\.info\\'" . (lambda () (interactive) > (require 'info) > (info-setup (buffer-file-name) (current-buffer))))) Looks better, indeed. Still sounds a bit risky since it throws away the current content of the buffer, so it probably won't work right in things like archive-members. It doesn't. :-) I'll look at what Info-on-current-buffer does and frob that. PS: Reminds me that I don't like the way our Info files (and some other project's as well) don't have a .info extension. Please, yes, please! PPS: And of course, the question remains of what to do when visiting foo-N.info. When makeinfo splits files, it will name them foo.info-N (not foo-N.info), so that case isn't one to worry about. But that raises the question of files that contain no nodes, specifically no Top node, i.e. output from: \input texinfo @c -*-texinfo-*- @setfilename hello-info-world.info @settitle Hello info world @bye I use this for articles, since it kills alot of the boiler plate. Though makeinfo should probobly warn/fail if there is no Top node. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-13 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-19 10:44 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-17 13:34 ` Nix 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-13 9:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ams; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel > Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:58:53 -0400 > From: ams@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > But that raises the question of files that contain no nodes, > specifically no Top node, i.e. output from: > > \input texinfo @c -*-texinfo-*- > @setfilename hello-info-world.info > @settitle Hello info world > @bye The only reasonable thing in such files is to show the entire file. > Though makeinfo should probobly warn/fail if there is no Top node. Why should it? Users should be free to do that if they want to. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-13 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-19 10:44 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-05-04 6:53 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-19 10:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel > But that raises the question of files that contain no nodes, > specifically no Top node, i.e. output from: > > \input texinfo @c -*-texinfo-*- > @setfilename hello-info-world.info > @settitle Hello info world > @bye The only reasonable thing in such files is to show the entire file. Which it does, with an error though.. > Though makeinfo should probobly warn/fail if there is no Top node. Why should it? Users should be free to do that if they want to. It is useful for various reasons to have at least a Top node. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-19 10:44 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-05-04 6:53 ` Glenn Morris 2012-05-04 9:32 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-05-04 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Since a few people asked for it, I implemented this (.info extension). I felt ok about using no-split, since Karl B said 9 years ago on a Texinfo mailing list that perhaps it should even be the default: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-texinfo/2003-04/msg00014.html I still suggest that the 24.1 release announcement would be a good time to take try and take stock of how many people are making real of Emacs on MS-DOS (and probably the older Unix variants too). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 6:53 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-05-04 9:32 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-04 19:16 ` Paul Eggert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-04 9:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 02:53:50 -0400 > > I still suggest that the 24.1 release announcement would be a good time > to take try and take stock of how many people are making real of Emacs > on MS-DOS And I still don't understand why this should bother anyone except myself. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 9:32 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-04 19:16 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 20:49 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-04 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel On 05/04/2012 02:32 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I still don't understand why this should bother anyone except > myself. Not two hours ago I was impeded in Emacs development by the MS-DOS support. The problem in this case was that MS-DOS 8.3 file name limits do not allow two different files named "gnulib-common.m4" and "gnulib-comp.m4", and this causes a wrinkle in our mainstream build procedures. In merging some of my old patches this wrinkle caused a build to fail, which took some time to figure out. That's just one example, of course, but there are others. The point is that the hassle of supporting MS-DOS does impede other Emacs developers, and this cost needs to be weighed against the benefit of supporting MS-DOS. I agree with Glenn that the 24.1 release announcement would be a good time to take stock of the need to support Emacs on older platforms. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 19:16 ` Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-04 20:49 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-04 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 12:16:00 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> > CC: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 05/04/2012 02:32 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > I still don't understand why this should bother anyone except > > myself. > > Not two hours ago I was impeded in Emacs development by > the MS-DOS support. The problem in this case was that > MS-DOS 8.3 file name limits do not allow two different files named > "gnulib-common.m4" and "gnulib-comp.m4", and this causes a > wrinkle in our mainstream build procedures. In merging > some of my old patches this wrinkle caused a build to fail, > which took some time to figure out. In developing and maintaining code, we meet such problems and solve them every day. The fact that this one was caused by MS-DOS is just a coincidence. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 20:49 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 23:01 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-04 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel On 05/04/2012 01:49 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > In developing and maintaining code, we meet such problems and solve > them every day. The fact that this one was caused by MS-DOS is just a > coincidence. Yes, it was a coincidence that I happened to run into an MS-DOS-related build problem a few minutes before seeing your email. But it is not a coincidence that MS-DOS support comes at a cost. Supporting MS-DOS is like supporting K&R C compilers, in that it's a minor hassle during development that benefits a small number of users, and we have to estimate whether the benefits are worth the cost. With K&R C we decided the benefits are not worth the cost, and perhaps a similar decision is appropriate for MS-DOS. It's not just MS-DOS. I agree with Glenn that it would also be useful to poll about obsolete Unix variants whose support clutter Emacs's code. This is a normal part of our release process. The Emacs 23.1 release announcement in 2009, for example, said that we plan to remove support for old GNU/Linux systems based on libc version 5, which last shipped around 1998 -- i.e., GNU systems that were more than a decade old. The last version of MS-DOS, if memory serves, was the one that came with Windows ME in 2000, which suggests that it's an appropriate time to consider decommissioning its support as well. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-04 23:01 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 0:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2012-05-04 23:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> wrote: > Supporting MS-DOS is like supporting K&R C compilers, in that > it's a minor hassle during development that benefits a small number > of users, and we have to estimate whether the benefits are worth the cost. You yourself say that it is a minor hassle, and estimating the number of users is difficult. Certainly DOS clones seem still alive. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 23:01 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2012-05-05 0:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-05-06 1:24 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-05-05 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, emacs-devel > were more than a decade old. The last version of MS-DOS, if memory > serves, was the one that came with Windows ME in 2000, which suggests > that it's an appropriate time to consider decommissioning its support > as well. I believe there's a misunderstanding, here: the "MS-DOS" support of Emacs is really about running Emacs in FreeDOS, IIUC. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-05 0:30 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2012-05-06 1:24 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-06 2:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-06 1:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-devel On 05/04/2012 05:30 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > I believe there's a misunderstanding, here: the "MS-DOS" support of > Emacs is really about running Emacs in FreeDOS, IIUC. My impression is otherwise, i.e., that the MS-DOS support of Emacs is intended to run on true MS-DOS. For example, the Emacs source code and documentation mentions MS-DOS hundreds of times, but it never once mentions FreeDOS. I'd be surprised if the intent is to support FreeDOS as opposed to MS-DOS, but if that's the case, this should be stated more clearly in the release notes and/or the user documentation, to help avoid future confusion in this area. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-06 1:24 ` Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-06 2:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-06 2:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: monnier, emacs-devel > Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 18:24:26 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 05/04/2012 05:30 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > I believe there's a misunderstanding, here: the "MS-DOS" support of > > Emacs is really about running Emacs in FreeDOS, IIUC. > > My impression is otherwise, i.e., that the MS-DOS support of > Emacs is intended to run on true MS-DOS. The DOS port supports true MS-DOS and all compatible environments. That includes FreeDOS, MS-Windows up to and including XP, and DOSEmu on GNU/Linux. Judging by email I get about the DOS port of Emacs, there are users of it on all these platforms. > For example, the Emacs source code and documentation mentions MS-DOS > hundreds of times, but it never once mentions FreeDOS. I don't think a GNU project should include too much detail about DOS-compatible environments. Anyone who uses them already knows that anyway. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 23:01 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 0:30 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-05 11:41 ` Juanma Barranquero ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-05 7:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Fri, 04 May 2012 14:33:00 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> > CC: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 05/04/2012 01:49 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > In developing and maintaining code, we meet such problems and solve > > them every day. The fact that this one was caused by MS-DOS is just a > > coincidence. > > Yes, it was a coincidence that I happened to run into an MS-DOS-related > build problem a few minutes before seeing your email. But it is not a > coincidence that MS-DOS support comes at a cost. The cost is negligible, even for me. For others, it's less than negligible. It is being blown out of proportions for reasons that have nothing to do with maintenance. > Supporting MS-DOS is like supporting K&R C compilers, in that > it's a minor hassle during development that benefits a small number > of users, and we have to estimate whether the benefits are worth the cost. You are conveniently forgetting that keeping the MS-DOS port is of some benefit for Emacs. The benefits might be minor, but they are not negligible. The tty color remapping, something without which using colors on a tty in pre-release versions of v21 was a painful experience, came from the MS-DOS port; inventing something like that from scratch could have taken many months if not years. Likewise the mouse highlight on a tty. Even for the issue that started this thread, the MS-DOS port was the trigger that moved Emacs manuals to what the Texinfo maintainer considers to be TRT, namely avoiding splitting the manuals; and I was the one who suggested that as a solution. Finally, these days I'm slowly working on adding true menus to the tty Emacs; the ideas, design, and most of the code for that will be lifted from msdos.c. I think these minor benefits more than outweigh the minor "hassles", but that's me. > With K&R C we decided the benefits are not worth the cost, and perhaps > a similar decision is appropriate for MS-DOS. Since almost all of the costs are mine, the decision should be mine. Currently, I decided that I will support the MS-DOS port for as long as I have time and energy to work on Emacs. Keep badgering me about this, and you will eventually succeed to break my spirit, and will lose me for Emacs development for good, because I don't enjoy being part of a group whose select members feel like kicking me in the butt once in a while. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-05 11:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 20:14 ` Glenn Morris 2012-05-08 6:28 ` Paul Eggert 2 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2012-05-05 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Paul Eggert, emacs-devel On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: > Keep badgering me about > this, and you will eventually succeed to break my spirit, and will > lose me for Emacs development for good That'd be a sad, sad day. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-05 11:41 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2012-05-05 20:14 ` Glenn Morris 2012-05-06 2:52 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-08 6:28 ` Paul Eggert 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-05-05 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Paul Eggert, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > It is being blown out of proportions for reasons that have nothing to > do with maintenance. Speaking for myself, you are attributing motives to me that I do not have. > Currently, I decided that I will support the MS-DOS port for as long > as I have time and energy to work on Emacs. Fine, now I understand the situation, so I don't need to bring it up again. For you to be involved in Emacs, the MS-DOS port should stay around, and how much usage it gets is not a factor. I think it's a bargain price for your labour! :) I still don't see what the big deal is with trying to establish how many people are using Emacs on these less common platforms. Note that I did not say "and then let's remove the ones that aren't used much". I just think it would be interesting data to have, and the release of a new major version seems like a good time to take stock. For example, I have no idea why "Ultrix" (last release 1995?) gets a mention on the Emacs homepage. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-05 20:14 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-05-06 2:52 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-06 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: eggert, emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 05 May 2012 16:14:20 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > It is being blown out of proportions for reasons that have nothing to > > do with maintenance. > > Speaking for myself, you are attributing motives to me that I do not have. I didn't attributing them to you. Sorry if that wasn't clear. > I still don't see what the big deal is with trying to establish how many > people are using Emacs on these less common platforms. I have no good way of doing that, except what I told earlier already. And I don't think it's worth my time investing more effort, unless we are doing it for other platforms as well. E.g., how about the NS port? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-05 11:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 20:14 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-05-08 6:28 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-08 17:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-08 6:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel On 05/05/2012 12:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > The cost is negligible, even for me. For others, it's less than > negligible. No, the issue cost me some real time recently, and it's done so at other times in the not-too-distant past. > Keep badgering me about this, and you will eventually succeed to break > my spirit, and will lose me for Emacs development for good, because > I don't enjoy being part of a group whose select members feel like > kicking me in the butt once in a while. Nothing in my emails can reasonably be described as "badgering" or "kicking". On the contrary, I agree with Glenn and Juanma that you are a valuable resource for Emacs development, and for that reason I withdraw my suggestion to poll users about MS-DOS usage. To try to avoid future kerfuffles like this, I'll look at reworking the 8+3-related build-procedure code that cost me time on Friday, so that it's less likely to do so in the future. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-05-08 6:28 ` Paul Eggert @ 2012-05-08 17:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-05-08 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel > Date: Mon, 07 May 2012 23:28:29 -0700 > From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> > CC: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 05/05/2012 12:05 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > The cost is negligible, even for me. For others, it's less than > > negligible. > > No, the issue cost me some real time recently, and it's done so at > other times in the not-too-distant past. negligible != zero > > Keep badgering me about this, and you will eventually succeed to break > > my spirit, and will lose me for Emacs development for good, because > > I don't enjoy being part of a group whose select members feel like > > kicking me in the butt once in a while. > > Nothing in my emails can reasonably be described as "badgering" or > "kicking". The feeling is obviously very personal and subjective. > On the contrary, I agree with Glenn and Juanma that > you are a valuable resource for Emacs development Thanks. > To try to avoid future kerfuffles like this, I'll look at > reworking the 8+3-related build-procedure code that cost me time > on Friday, so that it's less likely to do so in the future. Thank you. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-13 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-17 13:34 ` Nix 1 sibling, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Nix @ 2012-04-17 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: ams; +Cc: Stefan Monnier, emacs-devel On 12 Apr 2012, Alfred M. Szmidt stated: > PS: Reminds me that I don't like the way our Info files (and some > other project's as well) don't have a .info extension. > > Please, yes, please! Strongly seconded. I've been carrying round a patch to use and install them with .info extensions for the last year (ever since I switched from XEmacs, which does use a .info extension). -- NULL && (void) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-12 18:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt @ 2012-04-13 19:19 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-13 21:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-13 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Stefan Monnier wrote: > PS: Reminds me that I don't like the way our Info files (and some other > project's as well) don't have a .info extension. I can implement this. Unless there is some annoying MS-DOS 8+3 limitation at play...? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-13 19:19 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-13 21:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-13 21:19 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-13 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:19:36 -0400 > > Stefan Monnier wrote: > > > PS: Reminds me that I don't like the way our Info files (and some other > > project's as well) don't have a .info extension. > > I can implement this. Unless there is some annoying MS-DOS 8+3 > limitation at play...? When you implement it, we'll see ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-13 21:01 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-13 21:19 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 7:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-13 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > When you implement it, we'll see ;-) Contents of my info/ directory: COPYING ada-mode.info auth.info autotype.info calc.info calc.info-1 calc.info-2 calc.info-3 calc.info-4 calc.info-5 calc.info-6 ccmode.info ccmode.info-1 ccmode.info-2 cl.info dbus.info dir dired-x.info ebrowse.info ede.info ediff.info edt.info efaq.info eieio.info eintr.info eintr.info-1 eintr.info-2 eintr.info-3 elisp.info elisp.info-1 elisp.info-10 elisp.info-11 elisp.info-2 elisp.info-3 elisp.info-4 elisp.info-5 elisp.info-6 elisp.info-7 elisp.info-8 elisp.info-9 emacs-gnutls.info emacs-mime.info emacs.info emacs.info-1 emacs.info-2 emacs.info-3 emacs.info-4 emacs.info-5 emacs.info-6 emacs.info-7 emacs.info-8 epa.info erc.info ert.info eshell.info eudc.info flymake.info forms.info gnus.info gnus.info-1 gnus.info-2 gnus.info-3 gnus.info-4 gnus.info-5 idlwave.info info.info mairix-el.info message.info mh-e.info mh-e.info-1 mh-e.info-2 newsticker.info nxml-mode.info org.info org.info-1 org.info-2 org.info-3 pcl-cvs.info pgg.info rcirc.info reftex.info remember.info sasl.info sc.info semantic.info ses.info sieve.info smtpmail.info speedbar.info tramp.info url.info vip.info viper.info widget.info woman.info ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-13 21:19 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-14 7:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 8:04 ` Chong Yidong 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 7:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 17:19:19 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > When you implement it, we'll see ;-) > > Contents of my info/ directory: > > COPYING > ada-mode.info > auth.info > ... Thank you for sharing ;-) I must be missing something, because I don't see how this list is relevant to the 8+3 issue. That's why I said that I'd like to see the implementation in order to figure out whether something special is needed for MS-DOS. In case it helps, you may find dos-8+3-filename useful. Or not. TIA ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 7:01 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 8:04 ` Chong Yidong 2012-04-14 9:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2012-04-14 8:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > Thank you for sharing ;-) I must be missing something, because I > don't see how this list is relevant to the 8+3 issue. That's why I > said that I'd like to see the implementation in order to figure out > whether something special is needed for MS-DOS. Won't these filenames fail on DOS? calc.info calc.info-1 calc.info-2 etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 8:04 ` Chong Yidong @ 2012-04-14 9:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 10:14 ` Chong Yidong 2012-04-14 17:56 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 2 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 9:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org> > Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 16:04:14 +0800 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: > > > Thank you for sharing ;-) I must be missing something, because I > > don't see how this list is relevant to the 8+3 issue. That's why I > > said that I'd like to see the implementation in order to figure out > > whether something special is needed for MS-DOS. > > Won't these filenames fail on DOS? > > calc.info > calc.info-1 > calc.info-2 "Fail" in what way? Can you be more specific about the problems you envision, especially in the context of visiting Info files with commands such as "C-x C-f" or similar? Btw, these files don't exist in the Emacs's info/ directory. I see there 'calc', 'calc-1', 'calc-2' etc. instead, both in the DOS build, the Windows build, and the GNU/Linux build. I have no idea why Glenn has them with these extensions; e.g., doc/misc/calc.texi clearly says @setfilename ../../info/calc ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 9:15 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 10:14 ` Chong Yidong 2012-04-14 11:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 17:56 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Chong Yidong @ 2012-04-14 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes: >> Won't these filenames fail on DOS? >> >> calc.info >> calc.info-1 >> calc.info-2 > > "Fail" in what way? Can you be more specific about the problems you > envision, especially in the context of visiting Info files with > commands such as "C-x C-f" or similar? > > Btw, these files don't exist in the Emacs's info/ directory. Fail in the sense that 8+3 filenames can't have more than 3 characters in the +3 part of the filename. So they can't be part of the Emacs tarball if we want to preserve 8+3 compatibility. I think you missed out on a couple of messages. What we're discussing is adding a .info extension to the info files in Emacs (which apparently means .info-N extensions for multi-part info files). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 10:14 ` Chong Yidong @ 2012-04-14 11:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 18:01 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 11:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chong Yidong; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org> > Cc: rgm@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 18:14:45 +0800 > > Fail in the sense that 8+3 filenames can't have more than 3 characters > in the +3 part of the filename. So they can't be part of the Emacs > tarball if we want to preserve 8+3 compatibility. That's right. > I think you missed out on a couple of messages. I definitely did, sorry. > What we're discussing is adding a .info extension to the info files > in Emacs (which apparently means .info-N extensions for multi-part > info files). Doing so is indeed incompatible with MS-DOS. But wasn't this discussion about visiting Info files in Info mode automatically? If so, instead of renaming file to .info*, I think it's much better and more robust to detect the telltale first line, viz.: This is FOO, produced by makeinfo version X.Y.Z from BAR That's because nothing forces Info files to have the .info extension. In fact, the Texinfo package itself distributes Info files 'texinfo', 'texinfo-1', etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 11:28 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 18:01 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-14 18:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Chong Yidong, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> What we're discussing is adding a .info extension to the info files >> in Emacs (which apparently means .info-N extensions for multi-part >> info files). > > Doing so is indeed incompatible with MS-DOS. Yay. I was going to say that I could add an INFO_EXT=.info to the Makefiles, which MS-DOS could edit to empty, but since the info files are prebuilt in the release tarfile, that doesn't help, unless you make a separate MS-DOS tarfile. IIUC, a general solution was suggested for this http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-01/msg01182.html > But wasn't this discussion about visiting Info files in Info mode > automatically? Not just about that. For aesthetic reasons, it's nice for an info file to have an .info extension (IMO). Obviously it's not super important. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 18:01 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-14 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-16 17:44 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 18:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:01:27 -0400 > > IIUC, a general solution was suggested for this > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2011-01/msg01182.html I don't want to do that. I hoped the idea was dead. > > But wasn't this discussion about visiting Info files in Info mode > > automatically? > > Not just about that. Well, for visiting Info files, I think recognizing the preamble is a more robust way. > For aesthetic reasons, it's nice for an info file to have an .info > extension (IMO). We could use "makeinfo --no-split" for all the Info manuals (we do that for some now), and then the .info extension wouldn't be a problem for MS-DOS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-16 17:44 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-16 19:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-16 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: cyd, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We could use "makeinfo --no-split" for all the Info manuals (we do > that for some now), and then the .info extension wouldn't be a problem > for MS-DOS. To me, it would make sense to ask when 24.1 is released if anyone is still making serious use of it on MS-DOS, and if so to let emacs-devel know. config.bat could even print such a question. Though, this was done 4 years ago. http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu-emacs/2007-11/msg00000.html I don't know how many replied. It's an impressive technical achievement to make a modern Emacs work on MS-DOS, but if literally no-one is using it, it would be nice if the consequences for the rest of us could be minimized. The one that crops up most often is file names. Obviously it is not the end of the world, but it is an annoyance not to be able to name things as one would want. If Paul's idea for removing that issue works, I think you would hear fewer gripes about MS-DOS. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-16 17:44 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-16 19:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-16 20:26 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-16 19:13 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Cc: cyd@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 13:44:50 -0400 > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > We could use "makeinfo --no-split" for all the Info manuals (we do > > that for some now), and then the .info extension wouldn't be a problem > > for MS-DOS. > > To me, it would make sense to ask when 24.1 is released if anyone is > still making serious use of it on MS-DOS, and if so to let emacs-devel > know. config.bat could even print such a question. > > Though, this was done 4 years ago. > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/info-gnu-emacs/2007-11/msg00000.html > > I don't know how many replied. You could just check the comp.os.msdos.djgpp newsgroup (actually, the signal-to-spam ratio would be lower if you used its mailing list gateway, djgpp@delorie.com). I can tell you that just a week ago someone told me that Emacs 23.4 would not build for him (because some change back-ported from the trunk broke one of DOS-specific files). See http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/mail-archives/browse.cgi?p=djgpp/2012/04/08/18:37:56 and also http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/mail-archives/browse.cgi?p=djgpp/2012/04/08/18:21:55. > It's an impressive technical achievement to make a modern Emacs work on > MS-DOS, but if literally no-one is using it, it would be nice if the > consequences for the rest of us could be minimized. The one that crops > up most often is file names. Obviously it is not the end of the world, > but it is an annoyance not to be able to name things as one would want. I proposed a solution that should work for everyone. Why not consider it? > If Paul's idea for removing that issue works It doesn't, not for me. If worse comes to worst, I'd prefer to ignore the file-name conflicts altogether, than to use that idea. > I think you would hear fewer gripes about MS-DOS. I seriously doubt that. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-16 19:13 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-16 20:26 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-16 20:33 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-16 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: cyd, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > You could just check the comp.os.msdos.djgpp newsgroup (actually, the > signal-to-spam ratio would be lower if you used its mailing list > gateway, djgpp@delorie.com). I knew there some list like that, but I forgot where. > I can tell you that just a week ago someone told me that Emacs 23.4 > would not build for him (because some change back-ported from the > trunk broke one of DOS-specific files). See Sure. Does this prove he needs it, or is he just building it for fun, to see if it works? Does one potential user justify keeping a port around? Anyone using MS-DOS is pretty obviously not using recent software. Do they really need Emacs 24.2? (But this is all old ground.) > I proposed a solution that should work for everyone. Why not consider it? Not splitting the info files; seems fine to me (I don't know why we should change makeinfo's default behavior for the sake of MS-DOS though). This would give a 3MB elisp info file. I tried it and noticed no performance issue. The gcc.info file on my system is not split and is about 2MB (uncompressed). >> I think you would hear fewer gripes about MS-DOS. > > I seriously doubt that. You'd hear fewer from me. The file name issue is the only one that bothers me. I don't care about "#ifdef msdos". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-16 20:26 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-16 20:33 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-16 20:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii, Chong Yidong, Emacs developers > > I can tell you that just a week ago someone told me that Emacs 23.4 > > would not build for him (because some change back-ported from the > > trunk broke one of DOS-specific files). See > > Sure. Does this prove he needs it, or is he just building it for fun, Not the best example for you to pick. :) http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.msdos.djgpp/msg/f2859656f94ebe20 It is OK with me. It was not my intention to build an emacs port, I only wanted to test binutils 2.22 using large source code packages. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 9:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 10:14 ` Chong Yidong @ 2012-04-14 17:56 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 18:12 ` Eli Zaretskii 1 sibling, 1 reply; 39+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-14 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Chong Yidong, emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I have no idea why Glenn has them with these extensions; e.g., > doc/misc/calc.texi clearly says > > @setfilename ../../info/calc Because I already implemented the feature we are talking about, which involves changing those lines (amongst other things). I'm showing you waht the consequences will be if I commit it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
* Re: .info files 2012-04-14 17:56 ` Glenn Morris @ 2012-04-14 18:12 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 39+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-04-14 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: cyd, emacs-devel > From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:56:22 -0400 > Cc: Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org>, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > I have no idea why Glenn has them with these extensions; e.g., > > doc/misc/calc.texi clearly says > > > > @setfilename ../../info/calc > > Because I already implemented the feature we are talking about, which > involves changing those lines (amongst other things). I'm showing you > waht the consequences will be if I commit it. Sorry I was so stupid. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 39+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-05-08 17:31 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 39+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2012-04-12 14:38 .info files Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-12 16:12 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-04-12 16:49 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-12 18:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-04-12 21:58 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-04-13 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-19 10:44 ` Alfred M. Szmidt 2012-05-04 6:53 ` Glenn Morris 2012-05-04 9:32 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-04 19:16 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 20:49 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-04 21:33 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-04 23:01 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 0:30 ` Stefan Monnier 2012-05-06 1:24 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-06 2:55 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-05 7:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-05 11:41 ` Juanma Barranquero 2012-05-05 20:14 ` Glenn Morris 2012-05-06 2:52 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-05-08 6:28 ` Paul Eggert 2012-05-08 17:31 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-17 13:34 ` Nix 2012-04-13 19:19 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-13 21:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-13 21:19 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 7:01 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 8:04 ` Chong Yidong 2012-04-14 9:15 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 10:14 ` Chong Yidong 2012-04-14 11:28 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-14 18:01 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 18:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-16 17:44 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-16 19:13 ` Eli Zaretskii 2012-04-16 20:26 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-16 20:33 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 17:56 ` Glenn Morris 2012-04-14 18:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
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