From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:25:14 +0200 Message-ID: <83mwkn70ad.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> <87li074mxc.fsf@gmail.com> <83zjon7evk.fsf@gnu.org> <8761rb4jts.fsf@gmail.com> <83pppj77r4.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2ljwchj.fsf@gmail.com> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385735142 4704 80.91.229.3 (29 Nov 2013 14:25:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 14:25:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Jambunathan K Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 29 15:25:46 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VmP0p-0001W8-3j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 15:25:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47583 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmP0o-0004Yc-JO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:25:42 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48114) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmP0e-0004Xx-Ox for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:25:38 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmP0Y-0004Sr-U4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:25:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout21.012.net.il ([80.179.55.169]:64846) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VmP0Y-0004Sn-FI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 09:25:26 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout21.012.net.il by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0MX100H003UTGH00@a-mtaout21.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:25:24 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout21.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0MX100HW442C2AA0@a-mtaout21.012.net.il>; Fri, 29 Nov 2013 16:25:24 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: <87d2ljwchj.fsf@gmail.com> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165872 Archived-At: > From: Jambunathan K > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 19:12:32 +0530 > > You are saying that explicit markers could be used in place of > per-paragraph tagging to achieve the desired effect. No, I'm saying more than that: inserting those control characters _is_ the Emacs way of tagging the paragraph as having a certain base direction. Since Emacs is mostly about plain-text files, there's no other way to achieve that effect, while being sure that any other random UBA-compliant application will obey that. > May be it is not a question of "enough" but a question of > "manageable". i.e., minimizing or eliminating undesired effects while > moving - copy + pasting - the text around. I see no adverse effects from copy/paste due to these controls, except those effects that are already here to stay: in general, pasting bidirectional text into a middle of another text can already have profound non-local effects on how the paragraph into which you paste is displayed. RLM and LRM are just 2 strong directional characters, so their effect is the same as that of some Arabic or Hebrew character. > The FAQ below talks about avoiding paired control codes (to avoid > goofing up of structure) and says RLM and LRM are "less problematic". Don't take what w3.org says about (X)HTML and XML as having any relevance whatsoever on what Emacs does or needs to do. Emacs deals with plain text that is generally devoid of any persistent tags or other meta-data, so it cannot possibly DTRT by tags and markup, it must use only characters and directional controls. By contrast, w3.org is about markup languages, where the situation is entirely different, and actually using LRM, RLM, and other Unicode controls is "considered harmful". > The scenario I am placing is this: > > Org-mode table + Multi-paragraph table cells + Mixed scripts. > > >From the FAQ above, > > ,---- > | ... Using Unicode controls results in a lot more work to achieve the > | same result. Also it is difficult to know how to achieve effects like > | reversing table columns and right-aligning text with just Unicode > | control codes. > `---- "A lot more work" might be relevant for a human who prepares a Web page by hand, but it is no excuse for an Emacs mode. A layman might have hard time figuring out the effect of this or that technique wrt bidirectional text, but we in Emacs have enough knowhow and experience to deal with that correctly, and the infrastructure already exists to make it possible. All we need is for modes to use that.