From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 20:48:01 +0200 Message-ID: <83mw6fpllq.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834msoqrsg.fsf@gnu.org> <831tnrr8pm.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419274132 21668 80.91.229.3 (22 Dec 2014 18:48:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:48:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lennart.borgman@gmail.com, adatgyujto@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Yuri Khan Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 22 19:48:41 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3824-0003LD-PT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:48:41 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41563 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y3824-0004OX-4C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:48:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44879) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y381m-0004OP-C5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:48:28 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y381g-0002g3-7s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:48:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:38489) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y381f-0002fp-Qv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:48:16 -0500 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0NGZ00F00YGSFN00@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 20:48:14 +0200 (IST) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0NGZ00FWXYWD9G60@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 20:48:14 +0200 (IST) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 X-Received-From: 80.179.55.166 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180521 Archived-At: > Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:26:20 +0700 > From: Yuri Khan > Cc: Lennart Borgman , Tom ,=20 > =09Emacs developers >=20 > On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote= : >=20 > >> I use Google to search for information about Emacs, unless I kno= w > >> exactly what I=E2=80=99m looking for. > > > > That's a mistake. The Info's 'i' command is precisely the means = to > > use when you do NOT know exactly what you are looking for. I urg= e you > > to try that next time: at 'i's prompt type some word or phrase th= at > > you think relates to the subject you are after, and see what happ= ens. >=20 > This is limited to the features that are currently installed. The > question =E2=80=9Chow do I do X=E2=80=9D does not always mean =E2= =80=9Chow do I do X using > features I already have installed=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 rather frequen= tly it means =E2=80=9Cwhat > can I install in order to do X=E2=80=9D. That's a far cry from your original statement, see above. I'm guessing that Emacs belongs to the features that are installed on you= r system, yes? > > The Info manuals are indexed up front with this usage pattern in = mind, > > and you'd be surprised how efficient this search can be. Well, w= ith > > good manuals, anyway. (Emacs manuals are good.) We add index en= tries > > all the time to continuously improve the indexing. >=20 > What good is an efficient search facility if it is limited to good = manuals? Are we still talking about Emacs here? Because that's what this discussion is about, right? Solving the problems of the rest of the world might take a little longer. > I program in several languages, not only and not primarily Elisp. I > want to have a single search habit which works for all languages, > libraries and tools that I use. Typing =E2=80=9Cgg =E2=80=9D into > my Firefox=E2=80=99s address bar gives me that. Info, only if the r= elevant > Info manuals exist, are installed and contain the information I wan= t. Suit yourself, but IME limiting your habits to a single tool will yield a limited solution. This area is not yet developed enough to have one-fits-all solutions, so using the best tool for each job is still better. > I know the value of a good index and I miss them. But unless all > tools I need to use come with Info manuals, I will still have to > search the Web. Yes, you will. I see no problems with that. There will always be dark corners not described in any manual. > > I encourage you (or anyone else) to enhance info.el, which will r= emove > > or hide the newlines from the explanatory text, and then use word= -wrap > > and wrap-prefix to get the same effect as you see in HTML browser= s. > > (Not that I understand why it would be more readable to have the > > description in 200-column lines, but if someone wants such a feat= ure, > > why not?) The only not-entirely-trivial part here is to identify= the > > lines where the newlines should be kept, like examples, list item= s, > > etc. But there are enough clues in the text to identify those, i= n the > > same manner as we identify the section headings. >=20 > You are suggesting that I solve a backward problem =E2=80=94 inferr= ing > structure given a hard-wrapped text rendition. And, as much as I ca= n > infer without reading the Info source, it=E2=80=99s all like that = =E2=80=94 first > render to an unparseable format, then heuristically infer structure= . > Why do that when it=E2=80=99s possible to just not lose structural = information > at all? You could start with HTML output of makeinfo, if that makes the job easier. I don't think anyone will mind. > >> * The HTML version uses my preferred proportional font for prose= and > >> my preferred monospace font for code. The Info version is monosp= ace > >> throughout, except for headings. > > > > Likewise: should be easy to do this for Info. Patches are welcom= e. >=20 > I might do that *if* Info were sufficiently better for me than > Google-indexed HTML. As it stands, it is not. Why not? Above you didn't give any arguments for that, you just said that you'll need Google anyway. > > . "how do I do SOMETHING?" > > . "what is THAT-THING?" > > . "look for SUBJECT but excluding THIS-CRAP" > > > > etc. Bonus points for maintaining a database of user-specific > > preferences and personal style of queries, and applying that to f= uture > > queries. > > > > Interested? >=20 > Might be a good research project for a candidate dissertation in > linguistics/programming. Requires much more time than I=E2=80=99m p= repared to > invest; sorry. Sigh. If the time and energy wasted on these endless discussions why Emacs and Info are so bad were used for development, we might have been there already.