From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:04:01 +0200 Message-ID: <83mstckon2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83frz4mmef.fsf@gnu.org> <87le8wyr0x.fsf@brilhante.top> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24297"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: pertusus@free.fr, jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Daniel Cerqueira Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 11 14:05:28 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rNukR-00061S-Ow for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:05:27 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNukG-0008Iw-SF; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:05:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNukE-0008DT-MI; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:05:15 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNuk4-0005Ay-SD; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:05:12 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=3p0iRMqD85KSApzQk6L0729K3SC8oHc7Fw8jaDZrtB8=; b=RLvO4dYgNJet 10n7VN+llu9KMrXXxv6dUHJv+/N3C4SwRrOeDUmllm0m1F7ejeycf36Nx4SEaicRUtp6E3vqw6ve1 Vv6rHiLEL4XpSXy+6wZazQrUhNqz9H1J/qS0vlh4xuBffUiccAPE+W6Wblp0DrVg8OF9SfcxlNJpC 37W0uJd4koAf8suXMgQosSzJ4jZxn5u8iC5GMw5QFQYAiWYCEVtuom2CbFUk7b4rhXlcuCxppVaXS AXhwKzRv54CxcPGNjTsYStVKKUPZUHwLtViAD6Y7FcDhYUJA6c8nxMxO8bnYyYEcuWmcjjqL698zp OJDPmH60wZOfIhoHS/jz5A==; In-Reply-To: <87le8wyr0x.fsf@brilhante.top> (message from Daniel Cerqueira on Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:48:46 +0000) X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3401 gmane.emacs.devel:314853 Archived-At: > From: Daniel Cerqueira > Cc: Patrice Dumas , > jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, > vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, > help-texinfo@gnu.org > Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:48:46 +0000 > > > The translator doesn't always know whether a translated manual exists > > when the translation is being written. And even if a translated > > manual does exist, there's no reason to be sure it will be installed > > on the end-user's system. > > > > So it would be good to have some Texinfo feature that would make the > > behavior of Info readers more user-friendly in these cases. Right > > now, the Texinfo features that can help are @documentlanguage and the > > suggestion by Gavin to have in the translated manual an @anchor for > > each @node with the original English name of that @node. > > > How come the translator doesn't always know whether a translated manual > exists? > > That is ridiculous. > > It is the same as saying that a translator just translated a whole > manual, without checking, and it was already translated. Ludacris. This is a misunderstanding: I was talking about a manual other than the one which is being translated by a translator. A translator who works on translating, say, the Emacs manual doesn't necessarily know whether another manual, say, for Coreutils, to which the Emacs manual has a cross-reference, has been translated to the same language, nor whether such a translation of Coreutils will be installed on the system where a user will read the translated Emacs manual. > Sub-optimal? Like translators are deficient? Granted, nothing like that was intended. Sorry if what I wrote could be even remotely hinting on something like that. "Sub-optimal" in the sense that there will be situations where clicking a cross-reference will show an error message instead of taking me to another manual that I could read. > (I am the translator of GnuPG and Git). What do you do if you need to translate a cross reference from the GnuPG manual to the Emacs manual? Do you translate the node name to which the cross-reference points? If so, how do you know what is the translation of that node's name in the Emacs manual? > I wholeheartedly disagree with Eli. In here I am nobody, but still I > don't like this complexity being added to a tool that I use to make > my books (texinfo). So you prefer that the Info reader shows an error message when the user clicks a cross reference to another manual, and the translation of that manual is not installed on the user's system, even if the English version of that manual _is_ installed? That's what I meant by "sub-optimal". I didn't suggest any solution, let alone a complex one. I just said that I think such a solution should exist.