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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs.
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 19:52:15 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <83lhfkoqww.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box>

> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2015 14:22:37 +0000
> From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
> 
> My view is that the curly quotes should not replace 0x60 and 0x27 in our
> sources, but that the option to display them as curly quotes should be
> made available to those that want it.
> 
> As far as I am aware, there has been no poll to gather and analyse the
> views of Emacs developers on these changes, much less one for Emacs
> users.  This is a Bad Thing.
> 
> What do people think?

I think this ship has sailed long ago.  E.g., GCC has been spewing
UTF-8 encoded quotes at me for several years now, and many Info
manuals started using Unicode characters, that show as gibberish on my
text terminal, many moons ago.

Like you, I don't like these characters very much.  The make my life
slightly harder.  But I like fighting quixotic wars even less.
Instead of fighting this wave, we should adapt and move on.

And there are ways of adapting: convenient input methods for typing
the characters, replacements for displaying them on terminals that
cannot show the originals, run Grep from within Emacs if it's
inconvenient to type these characters from a terminal and observe the
results there, etc.  We already have all that, and perhaps will need
some more, which we will discover as we move on.  The next release of
Texinfo, just around the corner, will have a feature where the Info
reader will display these characters in a legible form, even if the
terminal is not UTF-8 capable.  So it's not a catastrophe, just
something new to adapt to, and make sure, like we already do, that the
degradation on less capable devices is graceful.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2015-06-15 16:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 296+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-06-15 14:22 Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-15 14:46 ` Oleh Krehel
2015-06-15 15:34   ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-15 20:00     ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-15 20:16       ` Nicolas Petton
2015-06-15 21:04         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-16  6:34       ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-16 12:03         ` Robert Pluim
2015-06-16 12:35           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-16 13:10             ` Yuri Khan
2015-06-16 12:58         ` Andy Moreton
2015-06-16 23:53         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-22 13:24   ` Oleh Krehel
2015-06-22 15:23     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-15 15:14 ` raman
2015-06-15 15:23 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-15 15:30   ` Kaushal
2015-06-15 15:31     ` Kaushal
2015-06-15 16:33       ` Stephan Mueller
2015-06-15 15:38 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-15 18:28   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-15 18:42   ` Nicolas Petton
2015-06-15 16:11 ` Ulrich Mueller
2015-06-15 17:18   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-15 17:44   ` Drew Adams
2015-06-15 19:38   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-15 16:43 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-15 17:43   ` Drew Adams
2015-06-16  0:50     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-16 22:18       ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-17  6:59         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-16 23:56       ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-15 19:38   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-15 20:57     ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-16 15:55       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-16 22:43         ` Emanuel Berg
2015-06-17  7:17           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-17  1:54         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-17  6:21           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-17  6:36             ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-17  8:05               ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-18  4:07                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-17 13:03             ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-17 18:55               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-18  4:24                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-18  7:15                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-19  2:39                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-19  7:41                       ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-19 11:36                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-19 14:07                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-19 16:51                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-19 20:01                             ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-28 19:17                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-28 23:31                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-26 15:05                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-26 19:26                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-26 22:49                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-26 23:59                         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-27  2:08                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-28  1:10                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-28  5:00                             ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-30 10:08                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-30 13:50                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-30 14:12                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-30 15:32                                     ` Andreas Schwab
2015-06-30 15:47                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-30 15:54                                     ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-30 17:54                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-30 19:44                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-30 22:15                                         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-30 17:41                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-30 20:14                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-30 14:37                                 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-30 15:23                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-07-01 13:28                                   ` Andy Moreton
2015-07-01 16:56                                     ` Paul Eggert
2015-07-01 18:06                                       ` Andy Moreton
2015-06-27 12:22                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-27 14:46                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-28  9:52                           ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-28 15:35                             ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-29  9:13                               ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-29 14:50                                 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-29 21:52                                   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-30  1:51                                     ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-30 16:53                                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-28 17:52                       ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-28 19:21                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-28 20:28                           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-28 20:36                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-28 23:05                             ` Drew Adams
2015-06-29  5:59                               ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-29 14:39                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-29 21:53                               ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-29 22:08                                 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-28 19:27                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-28 19:54                           ` chad
2015-06-28 21:14                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-28 21:37                           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-29 21:49                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-18  4:29                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-18  7:19                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-18 12:02                   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-19  4:06                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-19  9:02                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-19 15:36                         ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-23 22:22                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-23 22:47                             ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-24 17:20                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-25 22:24                                 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-26 13:57                                   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-22  1:44                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-22  8:42                           ` Elias Mårtenson
2015-06-23 16:01                             ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-22 13:57                           ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-22 15:33                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 12:38                               ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 17:06                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 18:07                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-24 18:24                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-22 15:31                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-22 18:32                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-22 18:59                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23  3:16                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 11:40                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-23 13:02                                     ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 13:22                                       ` Oleh Krehel
2015-06-23 18:22                                         ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 19:29                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-23 19:53                                             ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 14:03                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-23 18:39                                         ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 19:04                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-23 19:12                                             ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 22:22                                             ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 15:43                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 18:17                                         ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 18:36                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 19:05                                             ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 19:21                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 19:51                                                 ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 20:29                                                 ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-06-23 20:42                                                   ` Matthew Carter
     [not found]                                                   ` <E1Z7UpW-0007r3-2O@fencepost.gnu.org>
2015-06-23 20:55                                                     ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-06-29  9:13                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 13:34                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-23 14:31                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-23 22:22                                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 22:51                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-24 14:55                                           ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-24 15:44                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-25  7:49                                               ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-25 15:45                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-25 22:49                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-26  1:15                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-26 13:57                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-26 19:22                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-27 12:20                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-27 15:36                                                           ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-28  9:51                                                             ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-26 13:58                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 15:36                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 15:42                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-24 15:13                                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-24 15:49                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-24 18:55                                             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-24 19:19                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-06-25  1:28                                                 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 12:41                                   ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 18:50                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-23 14:56                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 19:57                                     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-24 14:34                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-17 14:41             ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-17 14:58               ` Nicolas Petton
2015-06-17 16:03                 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-17 18:30                   ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-06-17 18:41                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-17 19:28                       ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-18  4:22                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-18  4:52                     ` ASCII-folded search [was: Re: Upcoming loss of usability ...] Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-18  5:27                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18  7:48                         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-18  8:33                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18  8:16                         ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-18  8:46                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18  9:50                             ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-18 10:13                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-22 20:49                                 ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-22 21:02                                   ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-22 21:03                                     ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-22 22:24                                     ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-22 23:28                                       ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-23 22:49                                         ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-24  8:03                                           ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-24 14:47                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-24 17:41                                               ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-24 18:56                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2015-06-24 21:44                                             ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-24 21:57                                               ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-24 21:59                                               ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-24 22:22                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-25  1:56                                                   ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-25 17:49                                                     ` Kaushal
2015-06-25 22:27                                                       ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-26  9:32                                                         ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-26 12:13                                                           ` Kaushal
2015-06-26 15:19                                                             ` Drew Adams
2015-06-26 17:20                                                               ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-26 18:42                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-26 18:42                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2015-06-26 19:08                                                                   ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-26 20:34                                                                     ` Drew Adams
2015-06-26 21:56                                                                       ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-26 22:54                                                                         ` Drew Adams
2015-06-27  8:07                                                                           ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-27  8:17                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-26 17:14                                                             ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-27 22:48                                                             ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-26 15:11                                                           ` Drew Adams
2015-06-23 16:46                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 17:20                                       ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-23 17:33                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 16:43                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 17:19                                     ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-23 17:31                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18  5:27                     ` Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs Ulrich Mueller
2015-06-18  5:46                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18  7:08                         ` Ulrich Mueller
2015-06-18  7:41                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18 16:44                             ` Ulrich Mueller
2015-06-18 17:23                         ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-18 17:32                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18 18:13                             ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-18 18:26                               ` Marcin Borkowski
2015-06-18 20:18                                 ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-18 21:27                                   ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-18 18:32                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-18 20:16                                 ` Steinar Bang
2015-06-19  4:24                                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-18  4:49                   ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2015-06-17 16:18               ` Robert Pluim
2015-06-18 12:00                 ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-18 20:11                   ` Robert Pluim
2015-06-18  7:05               ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-18  7:44                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-19  9:03                 ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-20  6:02                   ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-20 17:37                     ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-20 19:43                       ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-21 14:16                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-21 19:50                           ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-22 13:55                             ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-22 15:26                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 12:37                                 ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 13:08                                   ` Nikolai Weibull
2015-06-23 15:37                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-23 22:21                                     ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-24  2:48                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-24 14:56                                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-24 15:11                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-24 19:09                                             ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-25  7:49                                               ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-25 14:27                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-24  9:29                                       ` Oleh Krehel
2015-06-24 14:54                                     ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-23 16:25                               ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-23 17:53                                 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-06-23 22:54                                   ` Paul Eggert
2015-06-23 22:21                                 ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-22 22:22                     ` Juri Linkov
2015-06-15 16:52 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2015-06-17  7:16   ` Daniel Colascione
2015-06-17  8:15     ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-17  8:40       ` Alan Mackenzie
2015-06-17  9:02         ` Yuri Khan
2015-06-17 11:20           ` Tassilo Horn
2015-06-17 12:27             ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-19 21:35 ` Paul Nathan
     [not found] <<20150615142237.GA3517@acm.fritz.box>
     [not found] ` <<87ioamz8if.fsf@petton.fr>
     [not found]   ` <<32013464-2300-46c6-ba46-4a3c36bfee5d@default>
     [not found]     ` <<87twu62nnt.fsf@mbork.pl>
     [not found]       ` <<87oakdfwim.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
     [not found]         ` <<83wpz1lh7c.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <<CAAdUY-K0QVtMLG3v+EmmjXDCW6DWwJiSsV0giHX9rJ9EFDHL7Q@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]             ` <<83oakdl7yj.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]               ` <<CAAdUY-LLRyb_ruWMTQMjZCSFRJD7d-sLJD7sfj41nnhWhghCBw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                 ` <<83ioall3x5.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                   ` <<CAAdUY-JYmKsadzH0jy4fLK_eeC9V6wuX7UReKJ5m1FX9ZMzkrw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                     ` <<CAAdUY-JSZfnjBo8R7hKQswoqOfo024D0Dc7BmTP_4at9TWv-TA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                       ` <<87h9pzxtyi.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]                         ` <<CAAdUY-JO+wLX+EyHF7nv5Hii8ahYUk0YHMTrTOXAsuwFGoaAoA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                           ` <<87k2uudoqr.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]                             ` <<CAAdUY-LyfyZU3KfM1mvP5tjmeH=uQQM3B2+uDabv3mQT3Dm9JQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                               ` <<87616c94g4.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]                                 ` <<CAAdUY-KR+fcPzxaw7KgQ9pz38CeC8mRMWSZnY3_A2QRWGp8RCQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                   ` <<87h9pw6922.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
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     [not found]                                       ` <<CAFyQvY1iCMaF_EGOALyE-Gzy+nEy7r8O-pJ1SnWB=TvDuYk8nw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                         ` <<87a8vn75r7.fsf@mail.linkov.net>
     [not found]                                           ` <<CAAdUY-+CO3sSaz71qMsHJuET1J6Yd1tiosOKM+dC7VU=fCPQbQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                             ` <<CAFyQvY2SZgZ+eJqHCi3Fgi1+fCkv5_m44=-rcVPi0aRwf3WuQg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                               ` <<0f72b0bd-0170-414c-b926-0b836a973d67@default>
     [not found]                                                 ` <<CAAdUY-+4C3X1w+vvBDEJ+B07Ta33=z6b3RZ61RW1ex9C4uV5Ww@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                   ` <<9b42a5bc-48e3-4111-b37d-280867903527@default>
     [not found]                                                     ` <<CAAdUY-+wvuO7YYEWvj+G7ZkrKA-hE9n=QaqZvvpzyJCyDC_KFw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                       ` <<12de813f-cffa-4231-95a4-5b9ee2709123@default>
     [not found]                                                         ` <<CAAdUY-KSjx=H8Mscii7Q6FNBO2UA4_RQw=9GjSPUYNrkKhSSgQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                                           ` <<a6bb8f58-1e27-47cc-8f77-766b8e8ff9b4@default>
     [not found]                                                             ` <<834mltd0qk.fsf@gnu.org>
2015-06-27 15:34                                                               ` ASCII-folded search [was: Re: Upcoming loss of usability ...] Drew Adams
2015-06-27 16:25                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-27 16:46                                                                   ` Artur Malabarba
2015-06-27 18:02                                                                     ` Drew Adams
     [not found] ` <<87y4jkhqh5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
     [not found]   ` <<E1Z4aDD-0005QL-Iq@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]     ` <<557F3C22.4060909@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]       ` <<E1Z4tDG-0003St-DZ@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]         ` <<5580D356.4050708@cs.ucla.edu>
     [not found]           ` <<87si9qonxb.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <<jwv8ubifq2g.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]               ` <<5581C29E.1030101@yandex.ru>
     [not found]                 ` <<jwvbngdbq6r.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]                   ` <<558D6A3D.1070706@yandex.ru>
     [not found]                     ` <<jwv381etgqc.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]                       ` <<877fqnzpno.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                         ` <<5590493C.8000007@yandex.ru>
     [not found]                           ` <<87381bzife.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                             ` <<75f2fe0f-f15e-4af8-b9ae-0ddc9231c9ab@default>
     [not found]                               ` <<83a8vi60ke.fsf@gnu.org>
2015-06-29 14:57                                 ` Upcoming loss of usability of Emacs source files and Emacs Drew Adams
2015-06-29 15:23                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-29 16:14                                     ` Drew Adams
2015-06-29 16:26                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-29 21:52                                     ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-30  2:42                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-30 16:53                                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-06-30 17:04                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-06-30 22:20                                             ` Paul Eggert
2015-07-01 16:19                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-07-01 19:33                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2015-07-01 19:53                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                 ` <<fc4de8bc-c7a6-4471-85cc-eaa9fcb34f7f@default>
     [not found]                                   ` <<83vbe64jyt.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                     ` <<800419d5-94b3-4325-a29f-e42678049f96@default>
     [not found]                                       ` <<83mvzi4h12.fsf@gnu.org>
2015-06-29 16:37                                         ` Drew Adams

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