From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: The poor state of documentation of pcase like things. Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 17:29:41 +0200 Message-ID: <83lh86adga.fsf@gnu.org> References: <20151216202605.GA3752@acm.fritz.box> <87io3m60bq.fsf@web.de> <877fk1nnk0.fsf@web.de> <8760zlue3j.fsf@gmail.com> <87vb7kajgv.fsf@web.de> <83y4c9ag06.fsf@gnu.org> <87bn95m9eg.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5686CDFB.2010105@dancol.org> <83fuygcs5g.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3i0l6oq.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87si2fwm38.fsf@web.de> <83twmv9vh5.fsf@gnu.org> <87si2fxpgj.fsf@web.de> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451835001 6204 80.91.229.3 (3 Jan 2016 15:30:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 3 Jan 2016 15:30:01 +0000 (UTC) Cc: dak@gnu.org, dancol@dancol.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 03 16:30:00 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbX-00061F-H4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 16:29:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41903 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbW-0005Fl-E9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 10:29:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbJ-0005FS-Fs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 10:29:46 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbF-0001DY-EG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 10:29:45 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42590) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbF-0001DT-Av; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 10:29:41 -0500 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2441 helo=HOME-C4E4A596F7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1aFkbE-0005cG-CM; Sun, 03 Jan 2016 10:29:40 -0500 In-reply-to: <87si2fxpgj.fsf@web.de> (message from Michael Heerdegen on Sun, 03 Jan 2016 05:21:48 +0100) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:197445 Archived-At: > From: Michael Heerdegen > Cc: dak@gnu.org, dancol@dancol.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Sun, 03 Jan 2016 05:21:48 +0100 > > > Are you serious? We've just had a long discussion about its missing > > or incomplete or inadequate documentation, > > I know that, but that we can and want to fix, so it is no argument about > whether pcase is really eval or not. The discussion is IMO a clear indication that at least some people have difficulties reading the code which involves 'pcase'. Which means, IMO, that it shouldn't be used where simpler, more clear forms will do. > > including a long dispute about whether it would be better to quote _. > > Yes, and...??? And that was IMO a clear indication that even the tiniest syntax issues related to 'pcase' raise problems. > > My summary of that discussion is that the syntax is complicated and > > quite weird. > > Where did we at all talk about the syntax? If the semantics are not clear, the syntax is the first suspect. > > Using such a beast where it is not required makes reading harder > > because it requires the reader to understand its syntax, if nothing > > else. > > And that's the real problem: (some) people refrain to try to understand > the syntax and prefer to complain. That's not my concern. I'm not one of those people. > Sorry, I give up. pcase seems to scare off people somehow. If 50 > percent of the people are not able to cope with the thing, for whatever > reason, and get stalled whenever they see it, I think we probably can't > use it. A pity. I never said anything even close to such an extreme. I don't think there's any danger of refraining to use 'pcase' any time soon. It does its job well, and where it's needed, it should definitely be used. > Is it even worth to update the docs of pcase? Yes, definitely. With the current proliferation of its use in our sources, we cannot leave it under-documented. I hope to see proposals for documentation patches soon, thank you. > Will anyone from those antagonizing it really try to learn how the > thing is supposed to be used? I'm sure more than one will, indeed. Thanks.