bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Van L]

> John Darrington writes:
> 
> You need to report this to the emacs maintainers.

The page should not say to contact: maintainers@gnu.org

> Van L writes:
>> Hello.
>> 
>> From the following locations I am unable to see the link to the Lisp Reference Manual, which is expected close to the Lisp Intro.
>> 
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
>> https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 20:21:56 +1000
> 
> 
> > John Darrington writes:
> > 
> > You need to report this to the emacs maintainers.
> 
> The page should not say to contact: maintainers@gnu.org
> 
> > Van L writes:
> >> Hello.
> >> 
> >> From the following locations I am unable to see the link to the Lisp Reference Manual, which is expected close to the Lisp Intro.
> >> 
> >> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
> >> https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html

I'm not sure I understand the problem.  Starting from

  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

I can click "Documentation & Support", and I'm then presented with a
list which includes the Emacs Lisp Reference Manual.  Clicking on the
"Read On-line" link allows me to read the ELisp manual.

Which one of the above didn't work for you?

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Van L]

> Eli Zaretskii writes:
> 
>>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
>>>> https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
> 
> I'm not sure I understand the problem.  Starting from
> 
>  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
> 
> Which one of the above didn't work for you?

I found the two links, as above. 

There I located the lisp-intro on an index page but a keyword search for ``lisp reference'’ had nothing which was why I contacted the email mentioned which turned out to be inappropriate to contact. If you’ve located the lisp reference, having it on the same page as the index for lisp intro, in fact, on neighboring lines, will definitely be handy to have, and it would be consistent with how they are arranged on the infopage directory.

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 12:50:54 +1000
> Cc: 31655@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> 
> > Eli Zaretskii writes:
> > 
> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
> > 
> > I'm not sure I understand the problem.  Starting from
> > 
> >  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/
> > 
> > Which one of the above didn't work for you?
> 
> I found the two links, as above. 
> 
> There I located the lisp-intro on an index page but a keyword search for ``lisp reference'’ had nothing which was why I contacted the email mentioned which turned out to be inappropriate to contact. If you’ve located the lisp reference, having it on the same page as the index for lisp intro, in fact, on neighboring lines, will definitely be handy to have, and it would be consistent with how they are arranged on the infopage directory.

Sorry, I'm afraid I'm still not following.  What is the "index page"
which you mention?  And what is "keyword search" in this case, and how
did you perform it?

Thanks.

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Van L]

> Eli Zaretskii writes:
> 
> Sorry, I'm afraid I'm still not following.  What is the "index page"
> which you mention?  And what is "keyword search" in this case, and how
> did you perform it?

The index page has a list of all the published manuals except the lisp reference. (I bug reported two links, one of them is it.)

The keyword search is the function in the web browser for finding a sequence of characters on the presented webpage. (Command-F does it on the web browser in front of me.)

On the following page,

  https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html

Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 

  Phrase not found

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 14:29:06 +1000
> Cc: 31655@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On the following page,
> 
>   https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
> 
> Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 
> 
>   Phrase not found

Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Van L]

> Eli Zaretskii writes:
> 
> Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.

That’s not obvious to a beginners’ mindset. The surrounding context is unhelpful.

  https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/

On the above page ,Emacs Lisp, has lost `Reference` as part of the title on the top line.

But the browser’s tab title is long enough for ,GNU Emacs Lisp Reference…,.

I don’t know about Bob but Barbra might want the lisp-intro and lisp-ref to be near each other on the virtual bookshelf.

Suggest helpful words to funnel towards elisp, which is near to eintr also.

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Van L <van@scratch.space>
>> Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 14:29:06 +1000
>> Cc: 31655@debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> On the following page,
>> 
>>   https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
>> 
>> Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 
>> 
>>   Phrase not found
>
> Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.

The request here is to have a separate link to the Emacs Lisp
Reference Manual from that page.  I think that request makes sense; in
any case it definitely can't hurt.

Does anyone else have an opinion here?  Otherwise, I'll go ahead and
contact webmasters@gnu.org to see if they can help add that.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Cc: Van L <van@scratch.space>,  31655@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 04:57:31 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >>   https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
> >> 
> >> Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 
> >> 
> >>   Phrase not found
> >
> > Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.
> 
> The request here is to have a separate link to the Emacs Lisp
> Reference Manual from that page.  I think that request makes sense; in
> any case it definitely can't hurt.

My point was that there is such a link already there.  Search for
"elisp", and you will find it.  The OP searched for "lisp ref" for
some reason, and that substring is not present on the page.
Personally, I don't understand the motivation behind that search
string, but that's me.

> Does anyone else have an opinion here?  Otherwise, I'll go ahead and
> contact webmasters@gnu.org to see if they can help add that.

If we are going to add more links to the ELisp manuals (or Emacs
manuals in general), we might as well first come up with a list of
strings people might use while searching that page, because adding
just one random string might not be good enough for the next bug
report.

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[VanL]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> My point was that there is such a link already there.  Search for
> "elisp", and you will find it.  The OP searched for "lisp ref" for
> some reason, and that substring is not present on the page.
> Personally, I don't understand the motivation behind that search
> string, but that's me.

I don't recall the context when I spotted what I thought at the time
was a bug worth pursuing.  Generally, when typing in a text box for a
search engine, I expect to see word and phrase completion.  I
might've been after in full 'lisp reference manual' and expected that
to be the expansion from 'lisp ref'.  Not being familiar with the
word 'elisp', at that time, there would've been zero chance of typing
that in.  Yes, you want lots of search terms people use when what
they really want to find is elisp; and allow for missed spellings, etc.

-- 
LoL,
  əə0@ 一 二 三 言 語 𝔖
  'VLIW architecture?'
  G4 White 78 Black 79

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: VanL <van@scratch.space>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,  31655@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2019 19:48:17 +1100
> 
> I don't recall the context when I spotted what I thought at the time
> was a bug worth pursuing.  Generally, when typing in a text box for a
> search engine, I expect to see word and phrase completion.

That's the feature of a Web browser you used in this case, isn't it?

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[VanL]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Generally, when typing in a text box for a search engine, I expect to
>> see word and phrase completion.
>
> That's the feature of a Web browser you used in this case, isn't it?

I don't know.  I could guess you are suggesting JS is in on it.  Even
before the address-bar on the web browser functioned as the text input
to search engine, landing on search engine page and typing incomplete
text fragments did expand to a listing of results.

-- 
LoL,
  əə0@ 一 二 三 言 語 𝔖
  'VLIW architecture?'
  G4 White 78 Black 79

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> >>   https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
>> >> 
>> >> Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 
>> >> 
>> >>   Phrase not found
>> >
>> > Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.
>> 
>> The request here is to have a separate link to the Emacs Lisp
>> Reference Manual from that page.  I think that request makes sense; in
>> any case it definitely can't hurt.
>
> My point was that there is such a link already there.  Search for
> "elisp", and you will find it.  The OP searched for "lisp ref" for
> some reason, and that substring is not present on the page.
> Personally, I don't understand the motivation behind that search
> string, but that's me.

Ah, I see now.  Indeed, the suggested search string was "lisp ref".  I
also wouldn't necessarily expect a beginner to search for that.

I was searching on the page for "emacs lisp", which is what I suspect
a beginner would go for.  I'm also guessing that "elisp" is a
shorthand that might be unknown to beginners.

> If we are going to add more links to the ELisp manuals (or Emacs
> manuals in general), we might as well first come up with a list of
> strings people might use while searching that page, because adding
> just one random string might not be good enough for the next bug
> report.

Personally, I think adding a link named "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual"
would be enough.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[VanL]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

>> strings people might use while searching that page, because adding
>> just one random string might not be good enough for the next bug
>> report.
>
> Personally, I think adding a link named "Emacs Lisp Reference Manual"
> would be enough.
>

All I know is there are two works on Emacs Lisp:

1. Emacs Lisp An Introduction to Programming in
2. Emacs Lisp Reference Manual

-- 
LoL,
  əə0@ 一 二 三 言 語 𝔖
  'VLIW architecture?'
  G4 White 78 Black 79

bug#31655: no obvious link to the Lisp Reference Manual

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> >>   https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html
>> >> 
>> >> Command-F followed by ,lisp ref, results in 
>> >> 
>> >>   Phrase not found
>> >
>> > Try "elisp" instead, and Bob's your uncle.
>> 
>> The request here is to have a separate link to the Emacs Lisp
>> Reference Manual from that page.  I think that request makes sense; in
>> any case it definitely can't hurt.
>
> My point was that there is such a link already there.  Search for
> "elisp", and you will find it.  The OP searched for "lisp ref" for
> some reason, and that substring is not present on the page.
> Personally, I don't understand the motivation behind that search
> string, but that's me.

I had another look at this with fresh eyes, and I think I agree that
there is no need for further links on this page:

    https://www.gnu.org/manual/manual.html

That page seems to be about enumerating different pieces of GNU
software and linking their manuals.  It makes no sense to have two
entries for Emacs in that particular list.

I'm therefore closing this bug report.  If anyone disagrees with that,
feel free to reopen (or just reply to this email) and suggest a
different course of action.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas