From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unboxed package manager Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 08:46:23 +0200 Message-ID: <83lejo55j4.fsf@gnu.org> References: <57668895-8EEA-44F7-BD46-9CDFAA11FD2C@gmail.com> <08b5f766ddd9da754a86@heytings.org> <08b5f766ddf4b33993cd@heytings.org> <08b5f766dd896dfbed4c@heytings.org> <83jzza6xwk.fsf@gnu.org> <08b5f766dd0f765bb1a9@heytings.org> <83edpi6vl4.fsf@gnu.org> <08b5f766dd05e9469540@heytings.org> <838rfq6mi8.fsf@gnu.org> <83zg846e53.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29017"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: gregory@heytings.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lynn Winebarger Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 23 07:47:13 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pfEjA-0007IC-Ve for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 07:47:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfEiD-0005pO-V0; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 02:46:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfEiB-0005nC-4H for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 02:46:11 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfEi8-0000ci-It; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 02:46:10 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=Ls0PukdEwiJYj4Uqa7AENgi6tjljROL7JWG4S4XApGo=; b=lppTdCl45U2Y/5Xjwukl tYCdIgz2cBCWU7U2TNYJeiwfZweeU7h7VGnSdtE2mhjLFIudSSQni5iKtnqarqq/4DXbuBYqVq+2k bKc1mc3tK1g6ARmi6DZgBERd1YF+z/cwjvnxDUjZNGiRd7e+/GP3WWaJloA3O+KE/zEkfqN7UpcZc nAUe7OM5ZR8yR7/0xs0g26UAkN9VPCMLX9m7LsmcCs648G6qQVxZRxCVK2GL7i+axqmJf6EsYMDsM uU0pvCFyooqTNdELLNd6gUSpWInV5E2J4JEhmqNHUHrZXgewdBQMGYciBs4c+iea0v3LCP/lDd8VD 3v7bweyeQSHE6g==; Original-Received: from [87.69.77.57] (helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pfEi6-0000xO-TV; Thu, 23 Mar 2023 02:46:08 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Lynn Winebarger on Wed, 22 Mar 2023 18:22:55 -0400) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:304733 Archived-At: > From: Lynn Winebarger > Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2023 18:22:55 -0400 > Cc: gregory@heytings.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2023 at 10:42 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > > Why would someone want all 300 of them? Some of them even contradict > > each other, in that they implement similar features in very different > > ways. > > You're correct, many of them do address similar issues and should not > be "turned on" simultaneously. As long as they are well-behaved and > able to be switched on and off reliably, though, there's no reason to > not have them simultaneously installed and loaded if the user is not > dedicated to minimizing resource consumption. I didn't say people should not be able to do that. They should, and they are. I just said it isn't a reasonable thing to do, and thus doesn't justify our jumping through hoops to cater for it. > > > Note I'm just installing > > > these packages, not actually loading any of them directly. > > > > Exactly. So this is entirely theoretical use case, not a real one. > > I was just noting that the performance hit comes from merely > installing the package (and enlarging the load-path), not from loading > it. And I was just noting that doing such a thing cannot be of any practical interest to us, unless it causes severe bugs in Emacs, like crashes etc. > > As I already said: you can simply load each package by its explicit > > absolute name. Poof! problem disappeared. > > You're incorrect, unless you can ensure required system packages are > all explicitly loaded in order. SImply specifying the full path of > one will not prevent it searching for its dependencies. I obviously assumed (and I think I even said that explicitly) that the directories of those packages shouldn't be added to load-path; _instead_, they should be loaded by their explicit file names, including leading directories. _Then_ the problem with load-path will not happen. As for the order of loading packages -- that problem exists anyway, and I believe use-package, which is now part of Emacs, is capable of making the solution a bit easier. In any case, solving that is basically a one-time issue, when you first install a new package. > That said, I don't advocate adding that complexity when rationalizing > the way packages are installed is an effective way to avoid enlarging > the load-path in the first place. The number of packages whose design > really requires enlarging the load-path (just as a user of the > package, not in "development mode") is tiny in my experience. realgud > and its extensions are in fact the only ones that come to mind, > because of the use of load-relative. Others may be tricky to handle > automatically, but there's nothing in their design that fundamentally > requires enlarging the load path - a few manual modifications are > usually enough to handle those cases, which are fairly small in number > (magit being one of them due to the version function expecting to find > the package installed in its own directory or to be able to contact > the main git repository). So what exactly are you asking for? Is it some change in package.el? If so, what change?