From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:19:19 +0300 Message-ID: <83k127e8vc.fsf@gnu.org> References: <8wXYP4GY9hwW-9mYv6_LGMETZ8Vz3Ob1Bec6yh6kPT7yxjTkxA3V6dXY4ELra9tYiJUxJmgXKSIEX4w8HFiPRoeGVSQHDSoBVy1voj1e3Qo=@protonmail.com> <833694f29y.fsf@gnu.org> <4amRIW9fznS6sa3th4xPABzua9LQDlNPeIFxVsGYdq_wsg4-Ea1l9sEP-T6QrnO5QMV3jhgrnAspk2mSIC7COlodqr04koAcIPYPLLmPHFM=@protonmail.com> <83imhzecc5.fsf@gnu.org> <83y2qvcjv6.fsf@gnu.org> <83k12ed20s.fsf@gnu.org> <83blnqctyj.fsf@gnu.org> <9341072a-cf53-9092-2211-aa97c946e5b1@yandex.ru> <838sinfygb.fsf@gnu.org> <16fad982-e95b-7df1-25d0-1c666a6f8120@gmail.com> <83tv1begq5.fsf@gnu.org> <525fe795-0716-a224-ded0-00e49548aa3d@yandex.ru> <83lfmne9z1.fsf@gnu.org> <67546075-1419-acd2-53cd-f44d101bc26b@yandex.ru> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="103539"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 19:20:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJ3Q-000Qrn-7R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:20:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54774 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJ3P-0005AR-5p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:20:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:32988) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJ2A-0003o2-Ny for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:19:40 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33772) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJ29-0007OG-62; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:19:38 -0400 Original-Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2185 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJ28-0005HS-Lg; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:19:37 -0400 In-Reply-To: <67546075-1419-acd2-53cd-f44d101bc26b@yandex.ru> (message from Dmitry Gutov on Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:06:08 +0300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247532 Archived-At: > Cc: cpitclaudel@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > From: Dmitry Gutov > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 20:06:08 +0300 > > On 22.04.2020 19:55, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > And the icons look the same, no matter what distribution are we > > talking about? Doesn't something depend also on the desktop that's in > > use, and perhaps also on the window manager? > > No, the icons looks different across themes. Hence the whole notion of > "icon themes". But the set of icon names is fairly stable. This is what > we'd be relying on. But a given theme is not available universally, not even with the same toolkit, I guess? > > I'm not sure I like this direction. It sounds like the opposite of > > having an Emacs that looks more or less the same on all major > > platforms. > > Right. It's already not the case. Which is already bad, IMO. But before we make this a rule rather than an exception or a historical accident, we should think hard whether we really want that. Emacs is special in several ways, and one of them is its commonality -- you have only ever learn Emacs once, on one platform. It's why I can give advice on Reddit to people that use platforms I never did. So this will be a significant change in direction, at least in my eyes, and the decision should not be made casually, let alone by default. > > E.g., you buy the Emacs manual printed a year > > or 2 ago, but the icons it shows are all different from what's on > > display. I don't even understand how will we be able to show the > > icons in our Info manual, if the images don't come with Emacs and are > > different on each platform/build. > > The window looks are different between platforms anyway. No, not really. They are extremely similar, actually, modulo a few unimportant bells and whistles. At least the parts that are relevant to Emacs are almost identical. > On GTK, we're already there. Since 22.2, apparently. Only we haven't > been paying attention to keeping this feature in proper maintenance. I'm asking people to think whether we _want_ that. That we are one leg there doesn't yet mean we decided to do that consciously. You are suggesting to make that a policy, and that's a serious decision, IMO.