From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17511: 24.4.50; `line-move-ignore-invisible': doc and purpose not clear Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 12:00:11 +0300 Message-ID: <83iop4eq5h.fsf@gnu.org> References: Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1400317290 27673 80.91.229.3 (17 May 2014 09:01:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 09:01:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17511@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat May 17 11:01:22 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUY-0008Bl-CE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:01:18 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39272 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUY-0003n2-3n for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:01:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56609) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUP-0003mZ-BA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:01:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUI-0007ZX-B8 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:01:09 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:52269) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUI-0007ZP-91 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:01:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaUH-0006ue-Tn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:01:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 17 May 2014 09:01:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17511 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17511-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B17511.140031721926492 (code B ref 17511); Sat, 17 May 2014 09:01:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17511) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 May 2014 09:00:19 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51146 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaTa-0006tD-Tl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:00:19 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout24.012.net.il ([80.179.55.180]:50590) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WlaTW-0006rz-Ks for 17511@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 05:00:16 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.mtaout24.012.net.il by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0N5P00J00MQ02H00@mtaout24.012.net.il> for 17511@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:57:14 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([87.69.4.28]) by mtaout24.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0N5P00EWANJESK70@mtaout24.012.net.il>; Sat, 17 May 2014 11:57:14 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:89188 Archived-At: > Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 13:52:58 -0700 (PDT) > From: Drew Adams > > 1. The doc string says only that `next-line' and `previous-line' ignore > invisible lines. What does it mean for these commands to "ignore > invisible lines" - what does "ignore" mean here? What's the > user-visible BEHAVIOR difference between a nil and a non-nil value? > Why/when might a user change the value to nil? I changed the doc string to this: "Non-nil means commands that move by lines ignore invisible newlines. When this option is non-nil, \\[next-line], \\[previous-line], \\[move-end-of-line], and \\[move-beginning-of-line] behave as if newlines that are invisible didn't exist, and count only visible newlines. Thus, moving across across 2 newlines one of which is invisible will be counted as a one-line move. Also, a non-nil value causes invisible text to be ignored when counting columns for the purposes of keeping point in the same column by \\[next-line] and \\[previous-line]. Outline mode sets this." I hope this answers all of your questions in #1. > 2. The doc string speaks of invisible lines. But (elisp) `Invisible > Text' speaks of "invisible newlines" (not lines), which is presumably > something different (newline chars vs lines of any chars except newline, > possibly including the separating newlines). Are both true? Which? I think the doc string now clarifies this as well. > 3 The manual speaks of "the user-level line motion commands", not just > `next-line' and `previous-line'. Is there a difference? What other > commands are involved here, besides those two? Again, I believe the doc string now clarifies that. > 4. This Elisp manual node is not very clear in general. Again, what > does it mean for these line commands to ignore invisible newlines? Or, > for that matter, for them to "not care whether the text is invisible"? > What user-visible BEHAVIOR difference is there? I clarified in that paragraph that "ignoring" invisible text means behaving as if it didn't exist in the buffer. This implies that an invisible newline does not count as a newline, so when invisible text is ignored, such a line is considered to be part of the next line. IOW, commands that count lines will not count a line whose newline is invisible, when this option is non-nil, so, e.g., "C-u 10 C-n" will not decrement its counter when it moves across an invisible newline. > 5. After saying that we provide option `line-move-ignore-invisible' > specifically to let you prevent line motion commands from ignoring > invisible newlines (whatever that might mean!), this node says that if > ANY command ends with point in a certain position relative to invisible > text, then the cursor is automatically moved past that stretch of > invisible text (one direction or the other). How is this related to the > previous text about line motion commands and > `line-move-ignore-invisible'? It isn't related to line-move-ignore-invisible. It is related to the broader issue described by that node, which is invisible text in general. > If a user ends up understanding something coherent and useful from this > text, s?he is lucky indeed. Unhelpful comment, I wish you'd stop making them.