From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#13841: 24.3.50; Regression - unreadable `C-h k' help Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 20:29:56 +0300 Message-ID: <83inyzngx7.fsf@gnu.org> References: <<98E304F5436E487A91B33E89A04A5851@us.oracle.com> <87sirr1l0d.fsf@building.gnus.org>> <<87h9el2wcj.fsf@gnus.org> > <<87inyze2tq.fsf@web.de>> <<4e02c2a0-6e68-4091-a64d-131bcfc2fc49@default>> <<83wpnfnlf1.fsf@gnu.org>> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462037511 26817 80.91.229.3 (30 Apr 2016 17:31:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:31:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, larsi@gnus.org, 13841@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 30 19:31:37 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1awYju-0003i6-Tx for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:31:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59110 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYjm-0005tb-4l for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:31:26 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58015) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYjd-0005gc-Kz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:31:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYjR-0002iy-VY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:31:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:45904) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYjR-0002i0-S4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:31:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYjO-0004Mz-E5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:31:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:31:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 13841 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 13841-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B13841.146203743015156 (code B ref 13841); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:31:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 13841) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2016 17:30:30 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58241 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYio-0003t9-IR for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:30:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:38610) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYij-0003k7-Og for 13841@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:30:25 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYiV-0002Nv-D8 for 13841@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:30:13 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:33431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYiV-0002KW-9Q; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:30:07 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:1939 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1awYiM-0005NS-R7; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:29:59 -0400 In-reply-to: (message from Drew Adams on Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:20:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117398 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:20:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00) > From: Drew Adams > Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, larsi@gnus.org, 13841@debbugs.gnu.org > > > If you don't mind the Lisp form, you shouldn't mind the byte-compiled > > form, either. > > Excuse me, but this is sheer nonsense. I find it really > hard to believe that you are saying such a thing, Eli. > You who care so much about reasonably understandable > messages and doc for users. Lisp code is not documentation. I find it really hard to believe you are saying such a thing, after filing so many bug reports about unclear and unusable documentation. > Emacs users often (perhaps usually) read straightforward > Lisp code. They do not read byte-code (except for rare > exceptions - perhaps). They should read neither as documentation. > Source code is intended to be read by humans. Compiled > code, not so much. But neither is documentation. > > And if you cannot read bytecode, you can disassemble > > it, then it should be as crystal-clear to you as the Emacs 23 vintage > > result. > > Wunderbar. That's what you want to offer users, as > opposed to fixing this bug. No, I'm saying that we should not show code as documentation. > > A more general solution is not to have lambda functions hang on keys > > and mouse clicks. > > That's not a more general solution to aggressive/eager > byte-compiling. Yes, it is. If no code is show as documentation, aggressive/eager byte-compiling will hurt no one.