From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:59:17 +0200 Message-ID: <83il6j6ze2.fsf@gnu.org> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <83r0l771rl.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5nwa4a.fsf@posteo.net> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14429"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, joaotavora@gmail.com, adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 09:00:34 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qyp6W-0003ZY-II for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:00:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyp5b-00016d-CB; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 03:59:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyp5V-00014c-7O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 03:59:30 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qyp5U-0003kS-Pk; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 03:59:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From:Date: mime-version; bh=C9Q41Uxxg0qYcxlRnLqc3UgSIzKK04d78viGVCTveWs=; b=YwHxEWAkhO65 UBmaR/VaNHcS7CazRRbipkLybgi5su1WGKMgKwl766St8X70rmUIHReZ3AHMtukIPdggPpu/iTugq xL9Cju9OTCUgk/J7IACWwDVCR/OL47PEC6xdg1ZgzjweHmJaBMzdWk5NIoo6e/PjHS4UJlEIa+7U3 6tQyfBaCJo3jTfeJo0YHOf0DXaVDt1oux4dUuVnoKtKZ88mTKWU5WrQg077tR87sLe2nctheZOvb6 AnAjBVyCcMyb6Af3DMUKOkQigRZKvrC6y+xD3KoMyL/ptA0pLbHgZys8BceV2eloSI5RcHfE3H+a6 sK+FhbncayvYBhXKyT/kpQ==; In-Reply-To: <87sf5nwa4a.fsf@posteo.net> (message from Philip Kaludercic on Fri, 03 Nov 2023 07:48:21 +0000) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312152 Archived-At: > From: Philip Kaludercic > Cc: rms@gnu.org, joaotavora@gmail.com, adam@alphapapa.net, > emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com > Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 07:48:21 +0000 > > >> >> what constitutes "Emacs Lisp"? It would > >> >> seem peculiar if it were to be defined by the arbitrary decisions of the > >> >> past, constrained by the contingent circumstances of the time. > >> > > >> > Those "arbitrary decisions" are what got us to where we are now, 40 > >> > years later. So some respect for those "arbitrary decisions" is due, > >> > I think. > >> > >> No disrespect meant, but I am not sure we are thinking of the same > >> things. An "arbitrary decision" usually doesn't matter much, like > >> calling a function rplacd or setcdr. If a decision got us to where we > >> are now, I would say it wasn't that arbitrary, but a good one? > > > > Exactly my point. So what did you mean by "It would seem peculiar if > > [what constitutes Emacs Lisp] were to be defined by the arbitrary > > decisions of the past"? > > That "setcar" is supposed to be more Elisp-ish than "rplacd", or things > like that. I didn't mean traditional names, I meant traditional syntax and semantics of constructs. > >> Of course not extending it for its own sake, but I would assume that > >> making it easier for users to write practical and useful code should be > >> something that is valued. > > > > We should consider such additions carefully, weighing their advantages > > against the disadvantages: introducing "alien" syntax, making the > > language larger, etc. > > What I had in mind were extensions like the recent `with-restriction'. I doubt that this is what bothers Richard (and me, to some extent). > >> Could you explain what you mean by "traditional" Emacs Lisp? > > > > Basically, the language as it is, without macros whose syntax is > > different from Emacs Lisp. For example, cl-loop has syntax that to my > > eyes is starkly not Emacs Lisp, because it uses many keyword-like > > parts that look like they were lifted from Fortran. > > Then again (cl-)loop is a peculiar example; even among CL programmers > there are many that dislike using it on the same grounds. Grepping our own sources for "(cl-loop" comes back with more than 760 hits. That's more than one use for every 2 Lisp files in our tree. And cl-loop is not the only example of additions whose syntax deviates from Emacs Lisp traditions.