Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib?

[Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>]

> From: Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>
> Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com,  michael_heerdegen@web.de,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:28:54 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> And that things will "improve" once the promotion picks up speed?
> >
> > No.  I'm saying that we are still very far from a point where we have
> > enough data to decide whether that year-old decision was wrong or not.
> > Whether we see an improvement or not, time will say.
> 
> I think here's once difference in our thinking: One of my main critiques
> does not depend on time. Please see below

It is perfectly fine to apply different strategies of assessing Emacs
features, especially since no one can have expert knowledge of every
part in Emacs, and we probably differ in which parts of Emacs are more
familiar to each one of us.  E.g., if we were talking about changes in
bidi.c, I would probably be able to offer definitive opinions and
critiques right there and then.

> >> > Searching for seq-* in the tree brings more than 590 hits in more than
> >> > 170 Lisp files.
> >>
> >> And? The polymorphism isn't used.
> >
> > Then I guess I don't understand what you mean by "polymorphism".
> 
> C'mon :-)
> 
> This sub-thread started, when I told why I'm not using seq and will not.
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2023-11/msg00122.html
> I said this (this is all I wrote):
> 
>   The reason I will not use seq.el or map.el in the forseeable future is
>   quite simple: I haven't ever needed an abstraction over sequence types
>   using generic functions, and I never have CPU cycles to give away for
>   free.

This doesn't explain why you say that polymorphism isn't used, it just
states your reasons for not using seq.el.  So I'm still in the dark
here, sorry.

> Neither you nor Richard ever addressed the question why this
> polymorphism is needed or even a Good Thing.

Maybe it isn't strictly necessary, but I don't see why it should be
rejected, once it is there.  Several contributors to Emacs whose
opinions I respect liked the way seq.el is implemented, and wanted to
use it, which is one reason why it is preloaded.

> I doubt that your, and Richard's, intention is to really communicate
> over these issues. It has already been decided by Richard and you,
> right? The rest is rabulistic. Slow is fast enough, time will show,
> maintainers think this or that, it's preloaded, it's not concrete, what
> is polymorphism, and so on, and so on. Conspiracy theory is still missing.

"Rabulistic"? really?  With anyone else I'd take offense.  With you,
I'm just infinitely puzzled, not to say astonished.  Whatever did I do
or say to deserve such denigration?  I do have an opinion on this
issue, but since when is it deemed improper to have an opinion, and
why sticking to that opinion as long as no argument is brought up that
makes me change my mind is considered a vice?  I provided technical
arguments which explain my position; you can disagree, of course, but
please don't treat them as something unworthy, let alone dishonest.