From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 23:38:43 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83hab4ce1o.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <416D7143-AE4A-45FF-A3A3-AA208D268D97@informatimago.com>
> From: "Pascal J. Bourguignon" <pjb@informatimago.com>
> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2013 22:06:23 +0100
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>
> My point is that WYSIWIG doesn't mean anything when you don't consider an "external" medium.
I cannot disagree more. The main features of a document change very
little with paper size changes.
> >> - define styles, apply styles to tags.
> >
> > Isn't a "style" just another word for a "face"?
>
> For a character, perhaps. For higher level nodes, a style may be more complex, up to procedural styles, were you call up a lisp function to "font-lock" and justify the node (paragraph, chapter, etc). For paragraphs you would have margins and indentations and perhaps drop cap styles, etc.
I see no reason for these features to be connected to a style. They
can easily be separate; keeping them separate will make it easier for
users to specify arbitrary combinations of them.
> >> - assign parenthesized tags to text ranges (in a hierarchical structure
> >> similar to SGML).
> >
> > Not sure what for. This is a solution to what problem?
>
> What I mean here is some kind of structured editing.
>
> To split a paragraph in two, we can admit the usual RET key.
>
> To split a section in two, we can admit the usual insertion of a section title.
> But already here, most probably the user will enter a new paragraph containing the section title, and then select it and apply a header "style". Well, it's not style, it's the specification of a section header tag to this text, and by inference, the spitting of the current section in two.
>
> Those two examples have conventional "width of the ass of the horse" user interfaces, for conventional pre-defined tags: <section> <title> <para>.
>
> But with the introduction of XSL and DTD, the user can be allowed to edit documents with a structure not pre-wired, with tags having now pre-defined conventional user interface.
>
> Therefore we need a standard way to edit the document tree.
I think you confuse user interface with implementation. I can easily
envision commands that insert a section header that don't need any
idea about the document tree.
> >> - then for the WYSIWIG aspect, we'd need to implement a rendering
> >> engine. We have the basis with font faces, but more work is needed to
> >> give a WISIWIG representation of the page, and its computed layout.
> >
> > I think you underestimate the power and feature-richness of the
> > current Emacs display engine. We should try using it first, before we
> > decide that it is inadequate and should be replaced or significantly
> > changed.
>
> Perhaps. It's true that with truncate-lines mode, we'd get a a homothetic space, but can we adjust the height of the lines, can we adjust margins (to subpixel sizes).
The former is possible today, the latter can be added (but I really
don't see a need).
> We'd have to disable removing truncate-lines mode
What? why??
And why are you talking about truncate-lines, when Emacs has word-wrap
for quite some time now?
> >> Scrolling and zooming would behave differently in those WISIWIG
> >> windows, since they're would contain essentially a graphic
> >> representation of the page, like when we render PDF files.
> >
> > I see no need for abandoning graphical text display we use now.
>
> WYSIWIG.
>
> What we have now is not.
But we can have WYSIWIG without that.
> > None of the leading word processors does, AFAIK. Switching to displaying
> > pictures has many drawbacks; e.g., you cannot easily copy/paste with
> > it, and the display complexities will grow by orders of magnitude, for
> > now good reason.
>
> Any WYSIWIG word processor displays a picture on the screen, and let you edit the underlying text data structure. Even emacs does just that, only it has a more direct correspondance between character cells on screens and character slots in the buffer.
Of course, a character on glass is just a bunch of pixels. But if
that is what you are talking about, then what exactly are you saying
that we need to change from what we have today?
> For example, in scrolling a word processor let you scroll pixel by pixel, while emacs let you only scroll line by line, even in the splash window.
Emacs has pixel-level scrolling for a long time, it just is activated
in very rare cases, so you perhaps don't know it exists.
> Just take a good look at any WYSIWIG word processor window, and count the character pixels vs. the graphic pixels. There's a lot of graphics on them: rulers, margins,
Emacs can display images as well, you know. We just need to use that.
> I wouldn't mind a text editor that would let us edit enriched text.
> But strangely, I doubt that would attract new users.
Let's care about the features first, and talk about attractors later.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-11-22 21:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 239+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-11-17 7:28 Emacs as word processor Richard Stallman
2013-11-17 8:18 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-18 18:44 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 22:12 ` Rasmus
2013-11-19 6:02 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 8:01 ` joakim
2013-11-19 23:42 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 6:54 ` joakim
2013-11-20 18:01 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-23 6:07 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 10:57 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 12:20 ` Thorsten Jolitz
2013-11-19 14:35 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 13:28 ` Sivaram Neelakantan
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 8:38 ` Tom
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 23:08 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 23:26 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-12-15 16:16 ` Steinar Bang
2013-11-17 11:16 ` Daniel Colascione
2013-11-17 13:02 ` Nic Ferrier
2013-11-17 13:55 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-17 14:15 ` Juergen Fenn
2013-11-17 18:57 ` chad
2013-11-18 4:20 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 5:06 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
[not found] ` <l6dsng$6h4$1"@ger.gmane.org>
[not found] ` <87mwl04w3k.fsf"@zigzag.favinet>
[not found] ` <"<l6dsng$6h4$1"@ger.gmane.org>
[not found] ` <"<87mwl04w3k.fsf"@zigzag.favinet>
2013-11-18 18:44 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 19:42 ` Sean Sieger
2013-11-18 19:46 ` Sean Sieger
2013-11-19 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 7:08 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-18 20:19 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-19 6:02 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 8:46 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-19 9:39 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 11:21 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 14:35 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-19 15:54 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 15:25 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-21 16:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 21:27 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 22:03 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 0:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 6:37 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-22 21:06 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 15:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 15:26 ` Davis Herring
2013-11-22 16:06 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 19:01 ` John Yates
2013-11-22 21:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <CAJnXXoi2biZ0uOAB9s-0Y5=9EujpCV4a=CemR-K+wHeJVSB51A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <83a9gvcyq3.fsf@gnu.org>
2013-11-23 15:13 ` John Yates
2013-11-23 15:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 16:43 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-23 17:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 21:12 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 17:51 ` John Yates
2013-11-25 18:02 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 18:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 18:54 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-25 18:52 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-26 7:26 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-22 21:06 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-22 21:38 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2013-11-22 22:01 ` John Yates
2013-11-22 22:56 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-23 7:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 22:53 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-23 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 13:42 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-24 8:13 ` PJ Weisberg
2013-11-24 17:44 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-25 20:42 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-25 21:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 21:21 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-25 21:54 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
[not found] ` <<877gc14vzs.fsf@zigzag.favinet>
[not found] ` <<E1Vjbn0-0005Bd-4Z@fencepost.gnu.org>
2013-11-21 22:12 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-22 7:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 13:56 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-22 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 14:50 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-22 15:39 ` Yuri Khan
2013-11-22 16:07 ` John Yates
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 8:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 21:12 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-24 4:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 18:37 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-24 20:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 20:52 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-24 21:06 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-24 21:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 2:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-25 3:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-25 5:20 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-25 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-26 2:35 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-26 3:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-26 7:05 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-26 15:34 ` John Yates
2013-11-26 16:57 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-26 18:47 ` John Yates
2013-11-26 15:04 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-26 19:51 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-26 20:36 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-26 19:48 ` Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-27 2:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-27 22:26 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-27 23:01 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-27 23:06 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-27 23:48 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-28 0:50 ` T.V. Raman
2013-11-28 1:27 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-28 4:04 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-28 6:03 ` Drew Adams
2013-11-28 7:13 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-28 7:34 ` Bastien
2013-11-28 8:53 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-29 8:44 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 8:49 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 8:52 ` Bastien
2013-11-29 9:01 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 9:05 ` Bastien
2013-11-29 9:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 9:51 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 13:42 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 14:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 16:47 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 19:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 14:18 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-29 15:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-29 10:06 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-29 6:50 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-30 1:09 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-02 20:04 ` Emacs as word processor Hendrik Boom
2013-11-25 3:06 ` Yuri Khan
2013-11-26 0:04 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-23 0:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:05 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:05 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-15 16:39 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-16 17:19 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-16 18:02 ` Jambunathan K
2013-12-16 18:38 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-12-17 10:52 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-17 11:39 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-16 19:10 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 10:52 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-16 20:37 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
2013-12-17 10:53 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-17 11:41 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 11:48 ` Achim Gratz
2013-12-17 12:22 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-17 21:06 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-19 7:28 ` Bastien
2013-12-19 18:23 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-19 18:45 ` Bastien
2013-12-19 23:24 ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-21 6:02 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-21 14:34 ` Allen S. Rout
2013-11-21 21:16 ` Tom
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 7:22 ` Ivan Andrus
2013-11-22 13:26 ` Rüdiger Sonderfeld
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-20 18:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 8:00 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 16:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 18:34 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 19:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 7:28 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-21 9:15 ` Bastien
2013-11-21 9:22 ` Bastien
2013-11-21 16:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-21 17:43 ` Bastien
2013-11-22 10:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 20:44 ` Thorsten Jolitz
2013-11-22 6:54 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-22 7:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-22 7:52 ` Bastien
2013-11-22 11:36 ` Rasmus
2013-11-19 8:04 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-19 23:42 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 9:02 ` Christoph
2013-11-19 19:22 ` chad
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-18 13:59 ` Rasmus
2013-11-17 15:27 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-18 17:26 ` Christopher Allan Webber
2013-11-18 17:31 ` Tom Tromey
2013-11-19 9:20 ` Jambunathan K
2013-11-19 6:01 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-19 7:44 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-19 13:32 ` Jay Belanger
2013-11-19 15:16 ` Lennart Borgman
2013-11-20 1:50 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-20 18:35 ` Richard Stallman
2013-12-15 17:28 ` Steinar Bang
2013-12-15 18:18 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-12-16 0:17 ` T.V. Raman
2013-12-16 10:20 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
2013-11-19 6:14 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-11-22 16:19 ` Karl Voit
2013-11-22 18:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 11:11 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to (was: Emacs as word processor) Karl Voit
2013-11-24 15:01 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-11-24 16:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-11-24 17:27 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2013-11-25 12:24 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 7:01 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 9:10 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 9:15 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 9:34 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 9:34 ` Bastien
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 18:28 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 21:45 ` Achim Gratz
2013-11-27 7:44 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-11-26 15:58 ` Richard Stallman
2013-11-26 21:33 ` Achim Gratz
2013-11-24 18:36 ` Emacs will never be a WYSIWYG-editor and should not try to (was: Emacs as word processor) Richard Stallman
2013-11-23 6:06 ` Emacs as word processor Richard Stallman
2013-12-02 19:30 ` Hendrik Boom
2013-12-03 6:24 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2013-12-03 9:54 ` René Kyllingstad
2013-12-03 11:36 ` Jambunathan K
2013-12-03 16:32 ` T.V. Raman
2013-12-03 17:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-08 17:08 ` Andreas Röhler
2013-12-13 22:28 ` Juan M. Gonzalez
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2013-11-23 21:03 Anas R.
2013-11-25 12:25 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] <E1Vhwmp-0001x4-Pa"@fencepost.gnu.org>
[not found] <"<E1Vhwmp-0001x4-Pa"@fencepost.gnu.org>
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