From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: dak@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master db828f6: Don't rely on defaults in decoding UTF-8 encoded Lisp files
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:55:36 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83fv20fdh3.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5607A758.4020205@cs.ucla.edu>
> Cc: dak@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2015 01:22:48 -0700
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > I've also looked at the *.po files in the latest releases of GNU Make,
> > Gawk, Texinfo, and Binutils, and I find that between 20% and 25% of
> > such files still use non-UTF-8 encodings.
>
> Yes, and those files are a pain to look at with Emacs now, since it typically
> misguesses their encodings. Presumably Emacs should be looking at .po files'
> charset= decorations.
You need to install the po-mode.
But anyway, that's not the issue at hand. I just used those files as
indicators of preferences of some locales.
> > while I agree with you that UTF-8 encoded files are the majority
> > among non-ASCII files (and Emacs development aligns itself with that
> > fact very well), the non-UTF-8 minority, even in the Posix world, is
> > still significant enough, and we cannot possibly ignore it.
>
> Naturally we cannot ignore it. All I'm suggesting is that we change the default
> behavior so that it's more UTF-8 friendly, since that's the way the world is
> going. The old Emacs behavior should still be available, for people who need it.
You use "default" here in a sense that is different from what the Mule
stuff does. Since Emacs attempts to support i18n, not just l10n, it
cannot ask users to modify their defaults whenever they meet a file
that's decoded incorrectly. Emacs uses the defaults in this area as
the last resort, when no other information is available in the file
itself or its accompanying meta-data. That default is already as
friendly to UTF-8 as possible: UTF-8 is used in any locale where
that's the default. Going further, i.e. preferring UTF-8 in locales
whose preferences are different, will simply bring back the old bugs
and misfeatures of Emacs 20 and 21 which we worked so hard to
eradicate.
IMO, the _only_ sane way forward is to introduce more reliable ways of
detecting the encoding, whether by using some new kinds of meta-data
or by more extensive analysis of the text itself. (The latter
solution will probably have difficulties with decoding sub-process
output, but it could be very efficient with disk files and large
bodies of text made available to Emacs at once.)
IOW, I don't think we will be able to change our locale-derived
defaults any time soon. What we can do is minimize the probability of
having to fall back on those defaults. But this requires that
Someone™ volunteers to revamp our detect_coding_* implementations in
that direction.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-09-27 8:55 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20150921165211.20434.28114@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
[not found] ` <E1Ze4K3-0005KC-5U@vcs.savannah.gnu.org>
2015-09-21 19:57 ` [Emacs-diffs] master db828f6: Don't rely on defaults in decoding UTF-8 encoded Lisp files Stefan Monnier
2015-09-21 20:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-24 16:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-24 21:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-09-25 7:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-25 12:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-09-25 13:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-25 22:32 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 6:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 6:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 14:31 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 15:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 16:01 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 16:09 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-26 17:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 18:53 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 19:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 20:26 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-26 21:50 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 4:44 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 5:29 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 7:38 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 7:46 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 7:52 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 9:47 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 9:54 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:03 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 10:12 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 11:10 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 22:48 ` Richard Stallman
2015-09-28 2:41 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-28 6:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-28 15:08 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-28 15:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:52 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:00 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 8:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:29 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:37 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 8:40 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:50 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 16:03 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-27 18:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 19:52 ` Chad Brown
2015-09-27 20:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 20:32 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 7:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 7:42 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 9:20 ` Rustom Mody
2015-09-27 10:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 20:21 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 21:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 8:22 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 8:55 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2015-09-27 9:56 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-09-27 10:04 ` David Kastrup
2015-09-27 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 10:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 10:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-27 20:05 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-26 17:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-09-26 18:51 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 0:12 ` stephen
2015-09-27 4:44 ` Paul Eggert
2015-09-27 6:20 ` stephen
2015-09-27 8:34 ` Paul Eggert
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