From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Differences between Org-Mode and Hyperbole Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2016 09:43:25 +0300 Message-ID: <83furstu9e.fsf@gnu.org> References: <87h9cdmj6t.fsf@delle7240.chemeng.ucl.ac.uk> <5775A512.4020803@gmail.com> <8337ntvm2d.fsf@gnu.org> <5776B89F.60704@gmail.com> <83k2h5tbtv.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1467441843 28577 80.91.229.3 (2 Jul 2016 06:44:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2016 06:44:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Tom Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 02 08:43:56 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeh-0004qO-M1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 08:43:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37153 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeg-0003ES-Bj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:43:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42330) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeZ-0003EK-JU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:43:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeT-0001qT-Kf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:43:46 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:48344) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeT-0001qC-Hm; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:43:41 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.246.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.246]:2172 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1bJEeR-0000GB-BQ; Sat, 02 Jul 2016 02:43:39 -0400 In-reply-to: (message from Tom on Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:11:54 +0000 (UTC)) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:205073 Archived-At: > From: Tom > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 21:11:54 +0000 (UTC) > > Eli Zaretskii gnu.org> writes: > > > > > Besides, I think the fact that Richard was turned off by Org so early > > in his attempts to learn it should tell us something important. > > Richard cannot be accused of being an Emacs outsider, or of not being > > capable of learning complex Emacs stuff. > > No one doubts his ability to learn complex stuff, but Richard > often says he doesn't have time and I don't know how much time > he spent on it With his efficiency I came to know and appreciate through many years, I'm sure he spent "enough time" on it. Please accept that as an assumption that doesn't need to be questioned. > but Org is a complex package which cannot be appreciated by just > giving it a quick glance. Which is exactly the problem we are talking about. Does a package that includes several major and disparate feature have to be so complex to learn and start using, when just one of its features is required? Is there a better way to design such packages? These are the questions that should be the core of this discussion. > It's very much like Emacs which if a new a user gives it a quick try > he will say it's strange looking editor with arcane keybindings and > that's it. As I said, RMS is not a new user of Emacs. So that analogy is not just wrong, it's misleading: it takes us in the wrong direction. It would be best to avoid it in this discussion, IMO.