From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Do shorthands break basic tooling (tags, grep, etc)? (was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 09:45:30 +0300 Message-ID: <83fstjdiwl.fsf@gnu.org> References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <831r59kyhf.fsf@gnu.org> <834ka4k15m.fsf@gnu.org> <83y27gijmz.fsf@gnu.org> <8335pmgnjy.fsf@gnu.org> <604da2cb10ac61f2b8b89a02c89056be@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83a6jtff87.fsf@gnu.org> <5ac7a31cf2959c31c262a3377c736a5a@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <83ilygew7p.fsf@gnu.org> Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31536"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: acm@muc.de, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Phil Sainty Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 02 08:48:02 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYoT-0007yw-S2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 08:48:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53452 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYoS-0007Wl-JT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:48:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40606) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYmL-0006mp-Jn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:45:50 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:45416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYmK-0000Yv-7F; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:45:48 -0400 Original-Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4790 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mWYmJ-0004Ee-Ph; Sat, 02 Oct 2021 02:45:48 -0400 In-Reply-To: (message from Phil Sainty on Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:28:11 +1300) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:276048 Archived-At: > Date: Sat, 02 Oct 2021 13:28:11 +1300 > From: Phil Sainty > Cc: acm@muc.de, joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > On 2021-10-02 02:00, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >> From: Phil Sainty > >> Major usability issues caused by things not being what they appear > >> to be? Not to put too finer point on it, but that is precisely what > >> this thread has been about from the beginning. > > > > No, because shorthands are known to Lisp. They aren't a display-time > > feature. > > Several usability issues arising from shorthands have been clearly > described by multiple people during this thread. Breaking basic tooling > *is* a usability problem. Symbols not existing by the names used in the > code *is* a usability problem. There's a huge difference between breaking literal searches for symbols by text-searching tools, and breaking basic Emacs commands because the name the user sees and types is not known to Emacs. > >> I absolutely agree that you are not responsible for irresponsible acts > >> of others, but I don't think it was at all unreasonable to raise these > >> concerns. > > > > Sure, just don't raise them with us. > > I was advocating for the removal of a new feature from Emacs Lisp -- > this > is the only place I could do that. I see no reason to remove this feature. The issues raised here are all manageable as long as we use this only where and as intended.