bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Reuben Thomas]

I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
characters.


In GNU Emacs 24.1.50.2 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.24.10)
 of 2012-07-14 on skwd
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-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org/

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:42:18 +0100
> 
> I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
> space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
> characters.

A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
decide on our own.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Reuben Thomas]

On 16 July 2012 17:05, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> decide on our own.

The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:

http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:21:00 +0100
> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org>
> Cc: 11948@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 16 July 2012 17:05, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >
> > A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> > characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> > the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> > decide on our own.
> 
> The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:
> 
> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/

Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.  By
contrast, the Emacs display engine, which implements word-wrap,
examines and processes characters one by one.  So one needs to
"serialize", so to speak, the UAX#14 algorithms so that its decisions
could be made on a character-by-character basis.

I think just supporting more characters from LineBreak.txt on which to
wrap should be a good start, and much easier than implementing UAX#14.
Even for that, we will need an efficient char-table for the related
properties, probably via the uniprop_table machinery, like what bidi.c
uses.  Otherwise, referencing the ordinary char-tables of character
properties for each character we display could slow down redisplay too
much.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Reuben Thomas]

On 16 July 2012 20:47, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
> an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
> implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
> problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
> specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.

I wasn't suggesting you should implement the algorithm; I just assumed
it would contain a list of breaking space characters. You seem to have
found such a thing anyway!

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:48:52 +0100
> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org>
> Cc: 11948@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 16 July 2012 20:47, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
> > an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
> > implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
> > problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
> > specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting you should implement the algorithm; I just assumed
> it would contain a list of breaking space characters. You seem to have
> found such a thing anyway!

Yes, with your help: the file was mentioned in UAX#14.

Thanks.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[martin rudalics]

 >> The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:
 >>
 >> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/
 >
 > Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
 > an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
 > implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
 > problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
 > specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.  By
 > contrast, the Emacs display engine, which implements word-wrap,
 > examines and processes characters one by one.  So one needs to
 > "serialize", so to speak, the UAX#14 algorithms so that its decisions
 > could be made on a character-by-character basis.
 >
 > I think just supporting more characters from LineBreak.txt on which to
 > wrap should be a good start, and much easier than implementing UAX#14.
 > Even for that, we will need an efficient char-table for the related
 > properties, probably via the uniprop_table machinery, like what bidi.c
 > uses.  Otherwise, referencing the ordinary char-tables of character
 > properties for each character we display could slow down redisplay too
 > much.

While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
practical and simplified version of collation, see

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/

in emacs, I'd be all ears.

martin

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Lennart Borgman]

On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM, martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at> wrote:
>
> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
> practical and simplified version of collation, see
>
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
>
> in emacs, I'd be all ears.

How does operating systems support this?

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[martin rudalics]

 > How does operating systems support this?

I suppose most of them support it in some locale dependent manner.
Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
`dired' because it doesn't.

martin

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:13:20 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, 11948@debbugs.gnu.org, 
>  Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org>
> 
>  > How does operating systems support this?
> 
> I suppose most of them support it in some locale dependent manner.
> Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
> `dired' because it doesn't.

I suggest to file a separate bug report, and please explain there why
you cannot run Dired because of this, because I don't see the
relation.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[martin rudalics]

 >> Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
 >> `dired' because it doesn't.
 >
 > I suggest to file a separate bug report, and please explain there why
 > you cannot run Dired because of this, because I don't see the
 > relation.

I didn't say that I cannot "run" it.  I said that I cannot "use" it.
And I can't use it because ls/dired and I have different understandings
of what "alphabetically" means.

martin

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:49:56 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>
> CC: Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org>, 11948@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
> practical and simplified version of collation, see
> 
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
> 
> in emacs, I'd be all ears.

We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
we?

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[martin rudalics]

 > We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
 > 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
 > we?

That would be awesome.  Can you try doing that?

martin

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:02:10 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>
> CC: rrt@sc3d.org, 11948@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  > We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
>  > 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
>  > we?
> 
> That would be awesome.  Can you try doing that?

I can try, but would you please file a separate bug report for this?

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Stefan Monnier]

>> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
>> practical and simplified version of collation, see
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
>> in emacs, I'd be all ears.
> We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
> 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
> we?

We'd need to select a utf-8 locale before doing that, right?


        Stefan

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
>> space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
>> characters.
> A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> decide on our own.

I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
whether we want to show the file's content to the user.

For text-rendering, any space-like thingy that Unicode says isn't
unbreakable would probably be fine, but for the other case, it can
be important for the user to see the difference between a normal space
and some other space and wrapping the line can hide the difference.

Maybe we can rely on a variable such as nobreak-char-display (where
there's a similar issue).


        Stefan

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Reuben Thomas]

On 16 July 2012 21:37, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>
> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.

Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces are concerned?

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
>> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.
> Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces
> are concerned?

whitespace mode is good at showing where you have things like
trailing-spaces, but other than anal retentive guys like us,
nobody cares.  OTOH many people (myself included) have wasted hours
tracking bugs where some chunk of code contained some weird char like
a NBSP that displayed exactly like a normal space but isn't parsed the
same way.

For similar reasons, we don't treat ~ in TeX as whitespace: while its
rendering will display as whitespace its meaning in the source code is
non-trivial.

I'm aware that neither ~ in TeX nor NBSP are quite the same as the
problem at hand, but there is still the same general issue of
distinguishing the specification from its rendering and when editing
a file in Emacs you often what to see what the file specifies more than
what it will render to (which you'll want to see maybe elsewhere such
as in a browser).


        Stefan

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Reuben Thomas]

On 16 July 2012 22:16, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>>> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
>>> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.
>> Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces
>> are concerned?
>
> whitespace mode is good at showing where you have things like
> trailing-spaces, but other than anal retentive guys like us,
> nobody cares.

whitespace-mode is quite a bit more general than that: it allows one
to visualise various space characters, every time they appear. It
could presumably be extended to visualise more unicode space
characters.

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:

> I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
> space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
> characters.

Eli, now that we have word-wrap-by-category, wouldn't this be easy to
implement?  I.e., do 

(modify-category-entry #x2003 ?|)

for all characters of general-category Zs in character.el?  Or would
that have other negative consequences?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: 11948@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2022 14:47:23 +0200
> 
> Reuben Thomas <rrt@sc3d.org> writes:
> 
> > I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
> > space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
> > characters.
> 
> Eli, now that we have word-wrap-by-category, wouldn't this be easy to
> implement?  I.e., do 
> 
> (modify-category-entry #x2003 ?|)
> 
> for all characters of general-category Zs in character.el?  Or would
> that have other negative consequences?

Yes, now people who want what the OP wanted should be able to have
that easily.  But I would hesitate making that the default, instead
leaving it to user customizations.  We could have a minor mode to do
that, though, so that users who want this won't need to customize
individually each character's category set.

Of course, the harder part here is to decide which of the Zs
characters will allow word-wrap on them.  I don't think all of them
should.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Yes, now people who want what the OP wanted should be able to have
> that easily.  But I would hesitate making that the default, instead
> leaving it to user customizations.  We could have a minor mode to do
> that, though, so that users who want this won't need to customize
> individually each character's category set.

Sure, a minor mode would work well here.

> Of course, the harder part here is to decide which of the Zs
> characters will allow word-wrap on them.  I don't think all of them
> should.

Looking over these:

17 matches for "Zs" in buffer: UnicodeData.txt
     33:0020;SPACE;Zs;0;WS;;;;;N;;;;;
    161:00A0;NO-BREAK SPACE;Zs;0;CS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;NON-BREAKING SPACE;;;;
   5187:1680;OGHAM SPACE MARK;Zs;0;WS;;;;;N;;;;;
   7354:2000;EN QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2002;;;;N;;;;;
   7355:2001;EM QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2003;;;;N;;;;;
   7356:2002;EN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7357:2003;EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7358:2004;THREE-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7359:2005;FOUR-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7360:2006;SIX-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7361:2007;FIGURE SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7362:2008;PUNCTUATION SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7363:2009;THIN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7364:200A;HAIR SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7401:202F;NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE;Zs;0;CS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
   7449:205F;MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
  11232:3000;IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<wide> 0020;;;;N;;;;;

I think only the no-break ones shouldn't trigger wrapping?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: rrt@sc3d.org,  11948@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2022 13:32:48 +0200
> 
> > Of course, the harder part here is to decide which of the Zs
> > characters will allow word-wrap on them.  I don't think all of them
> > should.
> 
> Looking over these:
> 
> 17 matches for "Zs" in buffer: UnicodeData.txt
>      33:0020;SPACE;Zs;0;WS;;;;;N;;;;;
>     161:00A0;NO-BREAK SPACE;Zs;0;CS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;NON-BREAKING SPACE;;;;
>    5187:1680;OGHAM SPACE MARK;Zs;0;WS;;;;;N;;;;;
>    7354:2000;EN QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2002;;;;N;;;;;
>    7355:2001;EM QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2003;;;;N;;;;;
>    7356:2002;EN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7357:2003;EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7358:2004;THREE-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7359:2005;FOUR-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7360:2006;SIX-PER-EM SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7361:2007;FIGURE SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7362:2008;PUNCTUATION SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7363:2009;THIN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7364:200A;HAIR SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7401:202F;NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE;Zs;0;CS;<noBreak> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>    7449:205F;MEDIUM MATHEMATICAL SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
>   11232:3000;IDEOGRAPHIC SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<wide> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
> 
> I think only the no-break ones shouldn't trigger wrapping?

Those marked with "<no break>", you mean?  Yes.  But I think we should
add U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE to the list, although it's not Zs.

bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Those marked with "<no break>", you mean?  Yes.  But I think we should
> add U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE to the list, although it's not Zs.

Now added as word-wrap-whitespace-mode in Emacs 29, but if you have a
better name, feel free to change (and tweak the list of space characters
further).

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no