From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#67185: Small bug in the Introduction to Elisp manual Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 14:18:06 +0200 Message-ID: <83edgrrz0h.fsf@gnu.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33080"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 67185@debbugs.gnu.org To: Ryan Hodges , Richard Stallman Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 15 17:30:31 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r3Imd-0008Pi-Dm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 17:30:31 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IlJ-0002VG-Cv; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:29:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IlI-0002UV-Af for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:29:08 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IlI-0006Dv-2i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:29:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IlH-0002Bk-4i for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:29:07 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Eli Zaretskii Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:29:07 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 67185 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 67185-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B67185.17000656888182 (code B ref 67185); Wed, 15 Nov 2023 16:29:07 +0000 Original-Received: (at 67185) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Nov 2023 16:28:08 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53118 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IkJ-00027o-MN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:28:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58120) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1r3IQi-0001QS-AX for 67185@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 11:07:52 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r3Eqc-0005p5-Ro; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:18:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-version:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: Date; bh=SG/cUNbVdKHSfDI2r58v22Ynr8L5HoXJmjKWn+laH0w=; b=BU98oZ0sk4QEsKu8zTtA IxV6xAfarEhsU6MLcPpTDk+K+m/GN5L1uDf/df9CVyPUVAnIG3I/rSNRIxoH5pCx0JbNv5UgYFCAH R8mv37KHvgHW7+JJRkwe86NAUJmzEGcePhvFxe0X2mb4DEwuWtgVlUBq0tgnHyp8HkoOQCasM1tn/ ZVJrY6NSXOhq1vqakFO3AYftKzgh5tlY6E8DnSy68bv1ZaBveLxtKbJ5JYlsVaKHZH8iup1DaJJOz KyerbZPACfsA+HomWPjJVK00TcBuvXlClfTZ/67PgyhRAWFQ6x9jewgxUmo1QB1I0e8eczg6TuIK9 RgtpRpUG8Dgzcw==; In-Reply-To: (message from Ryan Hodges on Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:14:53 -0800) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:274379 Archived-At: > From: Ryan Hodges > Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 15:14:53 -0800 > > In section '8.2.2 Lisp macro' it says, > > "The ‘kill-region’ function definition also has an ‘unless’ macro; it > is the converse of ‘when’. The ‘unless’ macro is an ‘if’ without a then clause" > > Instead of saying "converse of 'when'" it should say "inverse of > 'when'." I'm not a native English speaker, but "converse" sounds correct to me in this context. > Also, that statement about > 'unless' being an 'if' without a 'then' clause tripped me up. I thought you were trying to say that the > 'unless' form didn't have a then clause, which isn't correct. Then I thought the point you were really > trying to make was that the unless form, like when, doesn't have an 'else' clause. No, it says it doesn't have "then", i.e. it only have the "else" part. Which sounds fine to me. > Now that I've read the corresponding section in the reference manual I know what you mean. I think > we should borrow the examples from the reference manual to make it clear and also emphasize that > 'unless' is a convenient mechanism for evaluating multiple statements when a condition is not true. > > Maybe the text should be: > > "The kill-region function definition also has an 'unless' macro. It is the inverse of 'when'. The > form, > > (unless CONDITION A B C) > > is equivalent to the form > > (when (not (CONDITION)) A B C) > > The 'unless' form is ideal in situations when multiple expressions should be evaluated when a > condition is not true. The 'unless' macro can also be viewed as an 'if' which does nothing in the > 'then' clause but evaluates one or more statements in the 'else' clause. In particular, > > (unless CONDITION A B C) > > is equivalent to the form, > > (if CONDITION nil A B C) > > In other words, if CONDITION is true, the form does nothing. Otherwise, when CONDITION is > false, the form evaluates 'A B C'. > > If you approve of the text or provide me more accurate phrasing, I'll gladly submit a patch. I also > understand if you think I'm being a little too verbose. This manual was written by a person whose command of the English language and whose methodological skill are exceptional. So I'm adding Richard to this discussion, and ask him to judge this text, and whether it needs to be improved and how. Thanks.