From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eli Zaretskii Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Efforts to attract more users? Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:20:39 +0300 Message-ID: <83d3utt8ko.fsf@gnu.org> References: <871vb9k0ob.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87wrt1i1qt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Reply-To: Eli Zaretskii NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278923047 2875 80.91.229.12 (12 Jul 2010 08:24:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 08:24:07 +0000 (UTC) Cc: lekktu@gmail.com, lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 12 10:24:05 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEIy-0002En-SU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 10:24:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58124 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYEIy-0004iu-8e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:24:00 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=43033 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OYEIp-0004hh-Qc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:23:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEIn-00056c-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:23:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mtaout20.012.net.il ([80.179.55.166]:61402) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OYEIn-00056C-5Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:23:49 -0400 Original-Received: from conversion-daemon.a-mtaout20.012.net.il by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) id <0L5F00000R94K800@a-mtaout20.012.net.il> for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:22:41 +0300 (IDT) Original-Received: from HOME-C4E4A596F7 ([77.127.120.144]) by a-mtaout20.012.net.il (HyperSendmail v2007.08) with ESMTPA id <0L5F00KK6R9RY170@a-mtaout20.012.net.il>; Mon, 12 Jul 2010 11:22:41 +0300 (IDT) In-reply-to: <87wrt1i1qt.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> X-012-Sender: halo1@inter.net.il X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Solaris 10 (beta) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127092 Archived-At: > From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2010 16:43:38 +0900 > Cc: Lennart Borgman , > "emacs-devel@gnu.org" > > I don't know what it feels like to mentor Lennart, personally. I do > know what it feels like to try to get code into Emacs, *and I won't > try it again*. So you are talking about Lennart, but think about yourself. It would have been fair to tell that up front. More importantly, there's a world of difference between these two cases, even though the result might be similar. > But I bet there is also a fair amount of good code sitting around > out there that people are unwilling to contribute because of the > scutwork and bikeshedding entailed in getting anything into Emacs, > and which experienced developers could whip into shape quite quickly > if they just took the code and said "it will be our pleasure". I don't think there's ``a fair amount of code'' in this status. However, I hope you will understand that making the necessary changes for a contributor who is unwilling to make them by herself is not a good policy in the long run, because (1) it's hardly a good use of the limited time resources I have, and (2) we will need to do this forever, as the contributor doesn't want to adapt their practices to some minimal requirements of QA and code cleanness. He even refuses to reformat his code as to facilitate the review! > I can understand Richard or Miles or other non-Windows-user > brushing it off; I don't understand you or Eli being willing to let > this one go without at least trying to beat it into shape yourself, What's not to understand? I have no time for arguing with Lennart, and I have better use (developing bidi) for the few hours a week I have to work on Emacs. I'm willing to invest some portion of that time in teaching someone who genuinely wants to learn. I'm _un_willing to _waste_ it on endless arguments with someone who thinks they know better.